FastTuohy wrote:
rojo wrote:
Jonthan Gault did a Q&A with her that can be read here:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2022/02/lrc-qa-with-runninglane-eastbay-cross-country-champion-natalie-cook/Well this will provide another marker for the "how fast is Runninglane" question. Jenna Mulhern who was 4th at RL in 16:29 just ran 16:17 finishing 2nd at Camel City Invite. I wish Ms Cook well.
Wait I thought runninglane was short?
Are You Serious wrote:
irunfastXC wrote:
This.
I'm terrified if she goes to college and the first thing her coach does is force her up to 50+ MPW.
Natalie Cook's dad is a running coach and her mom is a former outstanding runner herself. This is not some clueless family. There is no chance of them letting her college coach triple her mileage.
I talked to Natalie about this in December at Eastbay, and she told me that she thinks she can continue to keep her mileage low and still improve with various kinds of cross training. So that is what they are going to stick with. (I have no idea if the low mileage strategy will allow her to get much faster, but that's what they've decided to do.)
Watching her run looks like these are not correctable issues. Looks like the structure of her body is causing the form, not something that can be corrected. Low mileage is usually a sign of what the body can tolerate. Someone that talented, if they could do more mileage they would. My bet is if she tries more mileage it will result in early season fast times(not PR's) which will lead to everyone saying "wow look how fast she is running on just base!!" Then injured.
Then next season same thing, except the times are a bit slower and the injury shows up sooner. Then you go back to super low mileage and cross training, but the damage has been done, now the runner cant even do high intensity low mileage because of all the damage from the higher mileage. so the times get slower, and the athlete gets older and the window has closed.
I call shenanigans on 10 MPW. So does she run 1.3 miles a day with a long run of 2 miles? Everyone loves to say they ran tiny mileage because it makes for a better story. She's talented, obviously, but lets be serious.
`` wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
It is impressive for her to run that on such low mileage. Having been a low mileage HS guy (9-15 MPW) who then ended up being a very high mileage post college guy (100-140 MPW for a 3 year stretch), I can give my first hand anecdotal evidence that there aren't necessarily big gains to be had with increased mileage. I ran 15:48 in high school, and my 5,000 PR ended up being 14:58.
Hopefully she finds some optimal training that works well for her.
You went from 15:48 to 14:58 by increasing mileage...if she does the same she'll be in the top 10 all-time US women.
Not equivalent. She is MUCH closer to elite now than I was as a male.
rojo wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
It is impressive for her to run that on such low mileage. Having been a low mileage HS guy (9-15 MPW) who then ended up being a very high mileage post college guy (100-140 MPW for a 3 year stretch), I can give my first hand anecdotal evidence that there aren't necessarily big gains to be had with increased mileage. I ran 15:48 in high school, and my 5,000 PR ended up being 14:58.
Hopefully she finds some optimal training that works well for her.
My God. You ran 15:49 on 15 mpw and then got up to over 100 mpw for 3 years and your lifetime PB is only 14:58? Wow. It proves David Epstein's book is correct - people respond to training differently and some people don't respond at all.
As for Cook, yes she has lots of potential but the question is will she eventually be able to run more. I had a ton of stress fractures in HS and thought it was impossible to even run 40 mpw but eventually got up to over 100. But I had a guy at Cornell who had a ton of stress fractures in HS who also got them in college so we had to keep him at like 30 mpw.
Yes...15:48 on 15 MPW in HS to 14:58 later after running 100+ MPW. We all have ceilings. We all likely have different optimal training that we can never get perfect.
15 MPW most of the time. That's 3 quality days of 5 miles. She does 3 days of elliptical at one hour and does another 30 minutes of elliptical on her e running days. 4.5 hours of elliptical is probably equivalent to 25 miles running.
Hayduke wrote:
Are You Serious wrote:
Natalie Cook's dad is a running coach and her mom is a former outstanding runner herself. This is not some clueless family. There is no chance of them letting her college coach triple her mileage.
I talked to Natalie about this in December at Eastbay, and she told me that she thinks she can continue to keep her mileage low and still improve with various kinds of cross training. So that is what they are going to stick with. (I have no idea if the low mileage strategy will allow her to get much faster, but that's what they've decided to do.)
Watching her run looks like these are not correctable issues. Looks like the structure of her body is causing the form, not something that can be corrected. Low mileage is usually a sign of what the body can tolerate. Someone that talented, if they could do more mileage they would. My bet is if she tries more mileage it will result in early season fast times(not PR's) which will lead to everyone saying "wow look how fast she is running on just base!!" Then injured.
Then next season same thing, except the times are a bit slower and the injury shows up sooner. Then you go back to super low mileage and cross training, but the damage has been done, now the runner cant even do high intensity low mileage because of all the damage from the higher mileage. so the times get slower, and the athlete gets older and the window has closed.
Significantly more mileage is a hill she'll have to climb sooner or later, but elite success is still possible with sub-optimal form, as Albert Korir (w/ partially knock-knees & misaligned legs) demonstrated in NYC 2021.
more is on wrote:
15 MPW most of the time. That's 3 quality days of 5 miles. She does 3 days of elliptical at one hour and does another 30 minutes of elliptical on her e running days. 4.5 hours of elliptical is probably equivalent to 25 miles running.
In the aftermath of your race, there was a lot of discussion about you being a low mileage runner. How much mileage were you doing per week typically last fall?
During the beginning of the season I was on 10 miles a week and towards the end I was on 15-20 miles a week, depending on how I felt. And then my cross training would be 30 minutes on top of it and then an hour on the days I don’t run.
So how many days per week would you run normally?
Probably like four. I think four. I take Sundays off.
There is a 0% chance she only does 10-20 miles per week and won the national championship. Maybe she's talking about or "quality" or "workout" mileage.
It's like when Jakob Ingebretsen said he "wasn't naturally talented". Athletes at that level have to give themselves a chip on their shoulder.
Looks like she used to do more then took a break from Strava and now shows less:
Flagpole wrote:
rojo wrote:
My God. You ran 15:49 on 15 mpw and then got up to over 100 mpw for 3 years and your lifetime PB is only 14:58? Wow. It proves David Epstein's book is correct - people respond to training differently and some people don't respond at all.
As for Cook, yes she has lots of potential but the question is will she eventually be able to run more. I had a ton of stress fractures in HS and thought it was impossible to even run 40 mpw but eventually got up to over 100. But I had a guy at Cornell who had a ton of stress fractures in HS who also got them in college so we had to keep him at like 30 mpw.
Yes...15:48 on 15 MPW in HS to 14:58 later after running 100+ MPW. We all have ceilings. We all likely have different optimal training that we can never get perfect.
I don't think that it proves Epstein's point. Your performance on minuscule mileage showed that you excelled on low mileage and so it's likely that you would have run much faster than 14:58 on mileage more like 50-70 per week. Going from one extreme to the other had diminishing returns. Your coaching was probably not that good. There's a reason that particular hs programs and particular country regions have many, many really fast runners--the training counts the most for these distances.
zxcvzxcv wrote:
Flagpole wrote:
Yes...15:48 on 15 MPW in HS to 14:58 later after running 100+ MPW. We all have ceilings. We all likely have different optimal training that we can never get perfect.
I don't think that it proves Epstein's point. Your performance on minuscule mileage showed that you excelled on low mileage and so it's likely that you would have run much faster than 14:58 on mileage more like 50-70 per week. Going from one extreme to the other had diminishing returns. Your coaching was probably not that good. There's a reason that particular hs programs and particular country regions have many, many really fast runners--the training counts the most for these distances.
Mid 80s when I was in high school was the time of "less is more." Besides that, yes, my coaching in high school wasn't very good, but we had no internet then to see what others were doing.
I would say that I never really had great coaching, but the real limiting factor was talent. I got close to my talent ceiling.
more is on wrote:
Wow you are going to get the Tuohy crowd fired up. Cook is obviously much more talented than Tuohy but they don't want to hear that. Her upside is unlimited.
Rojo quit answering your own post.
if katelyn touhy's name isnt on the title, nobody would even bother to read this post ...i actually did not read ... just came her to say, who cares
Do you guys READ carefully?
"In the aftermath of your race, there was a lot of discussion about you being a low mileage runner. How much mileage were you doing per week typically last fall?
During the beginning of the season I was on 10 miles a week and towards the end I was on 15-20 miles a week, depending on how I felt. And then my cross training would be 30 minutes on top of it and then an hour on the days I don’t run.
So how many days per week would you run normally?
Probably like four. I think four. I take Sundays off.
And then you cross-train on the other two days?
Yes.
Look, bud, you are jealous about her talent, but it happens. Once in a while we do find some freak of nature out there, and this seems to be the case. Jeez!
What's 400 meters between friends wrote:
I call shenanigans on 10 MPW. So does she run 1.3 miles a day with a long run of 2 miles? Everyone loves to say they ran tiny mileage because it makes for a better story. She's talented, obviously, but lets be serious.
"In the aftermath of your race, there was a lot of discussion about you being a low mileage runner. How much mileage were you doing per week typically last fall?
During the beginning of the season I was on 10 miles a week and towards the end I was on 15-20 miles a week, depending on how I felt. And then my cross training would be 30 minutes on top of it and then an hour on the days I don’t run.
So how many days per week would you run normally?
Probably like four. I think four. I take Sundays off.
And then you cross-train on the other two days?
Yes.
It's not shenanigans, its talent. You are obviously jealous about that. but it happens. Once in a while we do find some freak of nature out there, and this seems to be the case. Jeez!
Jack Drag wrote:
Kamin wrote:
Well obviously the thread title should be changed to 15-20 miles per week. Am I missing something? She did 10 for awhile but now it is 15-20. This also reminds me a bit of Badger miles in Madison. The way people count miles can be misleading. Some might not even count warmups and cooldowns.
Warmups and cooldowns should not be counted! They are just preparing and after-treatment to avoid injuries.
lol no. Just no.
guys seriously, the fact that she can only handle 10 to 20 miles per week without her body breaking down is a huge red flag and makes it impossible for her to be a future professional Runner of any notoriety
I mean Jesus, it's not a positive, it's a huge negative for her future
Yeah she can get away with it in high school when she's not fully developed and she can do a ton of cardio with a little bit of running and run at a fairly high level or a very high-level even compared to other high school girls
But she'll never make a career as a professional Runner with that training Style
Bottom line is she has terrible form and is incredibly injury-prone and has never put up any seriously impressive age group performances
Yeah maybe she will post a really fast 5k but so did Jenna Hutchins and what has she been doing recently
This is like the hype for Sydney massarelli or Brynn Brown or Claudia lane or all the other girls who it was pretty obvious if you really looked at them that they were never going to be big time professional runners but of course people get caught up in the hype train
I mean nothing against this girl I hope she gets the scholarship and does well in college and her hard work pays off to some degree I'm just saying it's not a real good indicator for the future that her body breaks down with more than 10 miles per week
But she is training the way the top Americans did at her age and she is running significantly faster.
Schweizer, Houlihan. Coburn, Purrier.
That is a myth. They all trained very hard.