AIDAN MFing RYAN 3:56 Mile as a D3 Runner!!!!!

aztec the moronic wrote:

He should be embarrassed. He's the most foolish fast person in the country because he's paying 80k per year to go to college when he could be going to school for free.

Maybe he's wealthy enough not to care about $80K. Otherwise I'm quite sure he has mixed feelings about his achievement himself.

WilliamsAlum wrote:

aidanryanD1 wrote:

FYI Williams has another guy sub 14 in the 5K and another 5 pretty close to that, so realistically they should be a D1 team but that's never gonna change for obvious reasons

(rolls eyes)

There are certainly some good D1 programs that also have good academics. But Williams (and Pomona, which dominated D3 XC, and MIT, etc.) are great schools. Maybe Aidan had some D1 or D2 offers, but thought Williams was a better option - run well and get a great degree? Case in point, we're debating this on a site founded by Ivy League athletes? (Which AFAIK don't have athletic scholarships.)

This isn't that new. Karl Paranya ran 3:57.6 outdoors in 1997. There are some talented runners who go to D3 schools.

NCAA teams do not organize into divisions by competitiveness-- it is by the policy of the school. How much the schools want to emphasize athletics versus academics, invest into athletic scholarships, etc. A school does not get bumped up a division because they are more competitive.

Pretty awesome to see from a D3 runner. I was lucky enough to watch Carl be the first @ Haverford and thought that would open the flood gates, it did not, maybe this will?

everyone's dad wrote:

"There are certainly some good D1 programs that also have good academics. But Williams (and Pomona, which dominated D3 XC, and MIT, etc.) are great schools."

No. Williams is a great school but this post was the one that started the discussion. There are many great D1 schools. In fact, many are harder to be admitted to than Williams and have higher average test scores.

Even if we take the US News admission ranking as the best metric to define a great school (which it’s not for many reasons) how many D1 schools exactly on the list that are above Williams, Pomona, MIT have better distance programs? I count three, Stanford, Harvard and Princeton. Only Stanford provides athletic scholarships. If you are a standout HS runner and also want a great education, then choosing Williams or Pomona is a very reasonable choice. The talent gap between the top D3 programs and good D1 programs with great academics is closing. Ryan’s run is emblematic of this, that’s all.

He actually goes to school for free. His mom works at Columbia

There are few schools that are Williams's equal for elite career purposes. You're really splitting hairs if you think any school is substantially better, and are almost certainly wrong.

Also, I wouldn't use admission rates or test scores as a differentiator at this level. Particularly if you're comparing admissions rates to those at big name schools, which get a lot of hail mary applications that a lesser-known school like Williams won't get.

People are also forgetting that Aidan wasn't a 9:09 runner when he applied to Williams and decided to go, he was making his decisions based on his much worse Junior year times. His 9:09 status was from his senior spring. So the decision was very different than it's being framed. Bottom line is that it wasn't crazy for an affluent kid to go to an elite academic school with a great running program when he had that option.

I'm not sure what going D1 to run 3:53, say, would have gotten him that going to Williams and running 3:56 would not.

You are 100% correct on all of your points. If somebody thinks Ryan could run 3:50-3:53 because he attends Stanford or Oregon or someplace like that, speak up. He’s unlikely to become a top tier pro, and if he does, was his future career really compromised by running at Williams? I’m sure Williams has and will have served him well in all other respects.

All very true. I also think there are a lot of folks who have been out of the loop with regards to recruiting. Stanford's last 3 classes are as follows:

2020:

Cole Sprout- 4:02/8:40

Thomas Boyden- 4:04/8:50

2021:

Nolan Topper- 4:07/8:52

John Lester 1:47/4:06

Robert Dinonato- 4:10/8:44

2022:

Gavin Sherry- 4:01/801

Zane Bergen- 4:09/8:57 (Gatorade Runner of the year)

Most of these guys were under 4:06 in high school. The average HS State Champion doesn't stand a chance at getting recruited by Stanford. I love how most people think that if Ryan just went to a top tier academic D1 school, he would have been even faster. When to your point, besides a few like Stanford, Harvard, and Princeton the running programs just aren't that great at most of the other D1 elite academic schools. And the 3 above are almost impossible to get into as every elite runner with amazing times is going after the limited amount of spots.

Kids that want to go to elite academic schools have very limited options when it comes to balancing running and their studies. I'm sure Aidan Ryan considered that.

Stanford is out of reach for mere mortals. Our HS team had a young man that ran 8:57 (!) as a junior, and they were not at all interested. He’s headed to an outstanding academic D1 school with a mediocre to poor running program. I know he gave very serious consideration to Williams and PP. I hope he does not regret his choice.

I'm sure he could have done great things at Williams and in the Nescac with a time like that!

And I guess thats the opposite to someone like Ryan who decided to go the D3 route and be in a top D3 running program vs choosing the Ivies but being in a lower D1 running program. The good news for schools like Yale with Mader and Pala is that maybe the tide is turning in the Heps.

As I've said before, you need to choose the school that is right for you and not the one that gives you the most prestige or money. If you like the location, or the programs it offers, or the vibe of the kids, thats going to be far more advantageous over which program is going to get you to a 4:53 vs 4:56.

And hey, he can always transfer!

Nescac Dad wrote:

I'm sure he could have done great things at Williams and in the Nescac with a time like that!

And I guess thats the opposite to someone like Ryan who decided to go the D3 route and be in a top D3 running program vs choosing the Ivies but being in a lower D1 running program. The good news for schools like Yale with Mader and Pala is that maybe the tide is turning in the Heps.

As I've said before, you need to choose the school that is right for you and not the one that gives you the most prestige or money. If you like the location, or the programs it offers, or the vibe of the kids, thats going to be far more advantageous over which program is going to get you to a 4:53 vs 4:56.

And hey, he can always transfer!

Off topic now, but new coach at Yale and great recruits for next year as you point out (go D5 California!). Maybe the tide will turn for the Bulldogs.

Great accomplishment at any division but I think a lot of posters here are missing the point in terms of going to Williams vs. going to a DI state school.

As has been noted on these boards before Williams has one of the best DIII track programs in the country, they have excellent facilities and good coaching. In fact their athletic facilities across the board are top notch and they have won the DIII Director's Cup for best overall athletic program 22 out of 24 years, they are the Stanford of DIII athletics

Most college athletes, even ones who make it to the NCAA Championships in DI, aren't going to be professionals in their sport. Additionally most pro runners don't make all that much money and have short careers compared to the lifetime earnings of the typical Williams College graduate and for many people sports aren't the most important thing in their life. Bill Bradley spent two years as a Rhodes Scholar getting his master's degree after graduating Princeton and before starting his Hall of Fame NBA career.

Mr. Ryan may have chosen Williams for any number of reasons, it is a fantastic school, has a beautiful campus, and a great alumni network. As others have noted he wasn't going to magically turn into a 3:50 runner by going to Stanford and Oregon and maybe he applied and didn't get into Stanford. Maybe he didn't want to. be that far from home.

He may decide to go pro if he continues to improve or he may say hey I'm going to be an amateur or semi-pro or quit after college b/c he has other pursuits that he enjoys more.

“Nescac Dad.” I mean, if you truly are one then your presence here only lends support to the notion that parents of students at elite schools endlessly coddle, infantilize, and speak in place of their offspring. It is the worst of American parenting.

Somebody said that his mother works at Columbia which provides reciprocal privileges. If not, I am not a fan of spending $300k for an education. People blow it off saying that his parents can afford it. Well it they instead put the money away during his 5year education, it would be $440k when graduates. They could hand it to him for the purchase of a nice new condo and never have a house payment. That's the deal that we made with our daughter. She chose the free state school and we plan to hand her $300K next year when she finishes. We didn't agree to give her the bumped up amount.

I disagree. I graduated more than 20 years ago so Tuition to a school like Williams and most of the Ivy League was ~$100K for four years and in my experience I found it totally worth it. I got my first job at Amazon as a result of writing a letter to an alum from my school who was an executive there, that kicked off a 22 year career in technology that has been fun, interesting, and financially enumerating. Perhaps I would have made more if I had gone into Wall Street but I'm quite positive I would have worked longer hours and been bored after a few years.

The average family who makes less than $150K a year is going to pay less for a Williams education than they would at their State Flagship University. Most families who make up to $300,000 at getting some type of financial aid at Williams. All things being equal a family making $300,000 would get a $25,000 to $30,000 grant from Williams bringing the cost of attending to a little over $50,000. Another kid in college more financial aid.

The % of students who were first in their families to graduate college is rising dramatically at many Ivies and elite schools like Williams due to their generous financial aid policies whereas it is actually shrinking at top state schools like Berkeley, UCLA, University of Washington and others.

So if you are middle class or in the lower income tiers you aren't going to pay much if any more at Williams than most schools. If you are high income you probably aren't as sensitive to the cost.

Untrue. The average Williams student is a valedictorian with incredible test scores. They would pay nothing to attend their state school. 50% of Williams students get no discount. I plugged in my situation to the calculator, $200k income with $500k in savings. I would receive a $6k discount!!

Your savings is what did you in and yes it is true there is more variability at higher incomes. I plugged in $300,000 income into the calculator with very little savings and it gave me the $30K grant per year but for sure if your family is upper middle class or wealthy you are going to pay higher tuition for a Williams or similar school than at a state school.

My take is that if your family makes less than $100K and doesn't have a large you are going to be far better off in terms of any student debt at Williams than almost any state school. This is true with exceptions up to $150K in household income assuming you don't have a big 529 plan (parents max out your Roth before contributing to a 529, it can be used for education expenses and retirement accounts gets counted at a lower rate when it comes to financial aid).

Most state universities only give scholarships for tuition not for room and board whereas Williams will take into account the full cost of school including room, board, books, and other expenses in their grant formula.

Also $80K for Williams is the all in cost, it's high but UCLA is $36K, Umass $32K.

If your household income is $50K to $75K the average cost of UCLA after aid is $13K per year, at Williams the average cost would be $7K, everything else would be covered by a grant.

$75K to $110K at Williams and you're annual cost after aid would average $14.6K at UCLA it would be $19.5 according to the From US Dept of Education (IPEDS) calculator.

Today many state schools are under financial pressure and a lot of smart students don't get full rides just for academics. My wife was valedictorian of her high school class and a national merit finalist wanted to stay close to home so she went to University of California at Santa Barbara. She got a partial academic scholarship but no where close to a full ride. As her family income was high, she did in fact pay significantly less for her UC education than had she gone to Harvard where she was also accepted but her state school education wasn't close to being free.

My daughter chose our state school over schools like Williams. She is paying nothing for tuition or room and board. She is a national merit finalist with a 35 ACT. She seriously considered the other schools until seeing the final price. We were fairly shocked because we earn around that $150k amount as a teacher and nurse but we saved a significant amount over our 21 year marriage. It really made me realize how strange these schools are. One of my daughter's friends is rowing at Yale and brags that she pays little to attend. Her father earns around that $300k amount but he spends faster than he can earn. Their house is worth twice what ours is, they drive very expensive cars, and they take their expensive vacations while my wife works through the holidays. Yale rewarded their behavior and penalized my responsible behavior. Their earnings will be $1.2M during the four years of school while ours will be $600k. More troubling is that he will earn $6M over his remaining 20 working years. One of my friends recently told me that I should have purchased a 1M piece of artwork before our daughter started college because that would have been a legal way to hide our savings. I also could have slowly turned our savings into cash and stashed it in a safe deposit box. These schemes show how ridiculous their method of determining need is.