Loving the thread. I’ve been doing twice weekly threshold work with my athletes and myself for years. This is only the strength phase before specific though. Usually finishing or throwing in some leg turnover in there as well etc. And definitely on the faster end of these paces.
75 still alive wrote:
Cabral was there and made many good posts about Lopez and Mamede.
Cabral - whatever happened to that clown? His level of BSing was unprecedented - the guy claimed to a Portuguese national record holder and coach of Olympians LOL!!
citius5000 wrote:
Loving the thread. I’ve been doing twice weekly threshold work with my athletes and myself for years. This is only the strength phase before specific though. Usually finishing or throwing in some leg turnover in there as well etc. And definitely on the faster end of these paces.
Would love to start transitioning this thread into leaving this strength phase towards the specific phase. Bakken doesn't really mention it. Do they just do normal sharpening workouts? Cause Team Inge seems very race ready without many races.
citius5000 wrote:
Loving the thread. I’ve been doing twice weekly threshold work with my athletes and myself for years. This is only the strength phase before specific though. Usually finishing or throwing in some leg turnover in there as well etc. And definitely on the faster end of these paces.
Would love to start transitioning this thread into leaving this strength phase towards the specific phase. Bakken doesn't really mention it. Do they just do normal sharpening workouts? Cause Team Inge seems very race ready without many races.
london 5ker wrote:
citius5000 wrote:
Loving the thread. I’ve been doing twice weekly threshold work with my athletes and myself for years. This is only the strength phase before specific though. Usually finishing or throwing in some leg turnover in there as well etc. And definitely on the faster end of these paces.
Would love to start transitioning this thread into leaving this strength phase towards the specific phase. Bakken doesn't really mention it. Do they just do normal sharpening workouts? Cause Team Inge seems very race ready without many races.
I have heard the specific phase isn't all that long and not too much different. The threshold work backs down a bit but still stays present. The Saturday workout goes from hills to track work. When you do the double thresholds + hill session + strides for a few months you get really strong. The sharpening doesn't take long. I have seen numerous examples of guys running very fast off of limited track work. Latest example is the OAC boys at Boston. Ollie & Geordie only did two or three track sessions in preparation for that 5,000m and they each had huge PRs.
Could this be of benefit to the recreational runner? Not double threshold sessions, but two threshold sessions each week, dropping the faster work? Only introduce the faster stuff later.
Alfie wrote:
Could this be of benefit to the recreational runner? Not double threshold sessions, but two threshold sessions each week, dropping the faster work? Only introduce the faster stuff later.
For most rec runners it is more time running being the biggest driver. But sure for a lot of people 2 tempo runs is a solid base. Do some strides/short hills to keep the speed and you will be fine.
He probably did the norwegian style step test, 8 speeds with longer steps(6:00 a piece) with 1:00 rests
I think somewhere he mentioned on a different blog a different speed/hr at 3.0 mmol when he was in peak shape.
I was hoping he would say what he considers equates to a 'lactate threshold' in his understanding. Is it 1.5 mmol above baseline? Is it where you are seeing a jump of 1.0 mmol or greater. Maybe i missed it but he didnt define it explicitly.
I like that he mentioned the triathletes and how they carry out their intensity monitoring. They are very open with their training and are constantly producing content and their coach is always giving information and interviews about training blocks and goals.
KBlu and Gustav are constantly staying below 3.0 on a Lactate Plus and are even using lactate measurements on easier days. they've stated or their coach has that their Lactate Threshold is around 2.5 mmol, but im assuming their Aerobic Threshold is in the lower 1s, maybe 1.3 mmol.
And that's even device dependent. Probably 3.0 mmol and 1.6 on a Lactate Pro 2
GrapeSon wrote:
You clearly didn't read the article. At the top level everyone is doing most things right. But what is the most foolproof system to getting them there? That is what is interesting about this system. It's based around the simple principle: The best training is the training you can do a lot of(roughly translated from Norwegian).
Take it or leave it.
I wouldn’t say the best training is the training you can do a lot of, the best training is the one that gets you the fastest.
Different athletes have different goals. For the older runner, there’s no issue with lots of easier intervals and some race pace a couple weeks before goal race. This is similar to what the Tinman training is in theory. Staying fit year round and sharpening for key races.
However you’re going to get the most out of your body when you push the limits of speed endurance for mid distance races. Things like 3x1k @1500 pace. These workouts are not as sustainable, but will get you closer to your potential.
It is hard to say that there’s one correct way of training, and the sample size is too low to say that such a large amount of threshold is the proper way. Certainly it is somewhat effective, but you would be surprised at how similar it is to many other pro athletes, with different names for different things
Alfie wrote:
Could this be of benefit to the recreational runner? Not double threshold sessions, but two threshold sessions each week, dropping the faster work? Only introduce the faster stuff later.
I’m a broken record on this, but if you want to apply this to a recreational runner the best place to look is at the Ingebrigtsen older brother Kristoffer. All his training is on Strava
He does the same weekly schedule but only 1 run per day
Tues- threshold fartlek
Thurs - threshold intervals
Sat - longer threshold intervals
Sun - “long” run
You can look at what he’s doing now and be like hold sh*t that’s a lot. But if you go back a year, he has gone from 1:29 to 1:15 in the HM and probably will drop a couple minutes again whenever he runs another one. The progression has been very gradual and most weeks he does the same thing for several weeks in a row before bumping the pace or volume. You see almost no progression over a month or 2, but after a year he is doing WAY more and WAY faster.
My guess, the faster work is considered unnecessary for older or less developed runner as it is higher injury risk. There is so much aerobic development an adult recreational runner can have before speed is the limiting factor.
So for me the strength phase is really the longest phase if possible with generally the first workout of the week being cruise intervals (eg mile repeats with 1min rest) and the second a tempo run. The third hard day being the long run. The specific phase I keep in the threshold workout as the second workout of the week but now I alternate each week the tempo run with the cruise intervals. The key is making sure your estimating these paces off current fitness and not goal fitness. The first workout of the week is the race specific one. I only spend five weeks in this phase before tapering at least two week out from the last planned meet. So basically the specific or what can be considered the really hard training is 7 weeks. One thing you have to consider is a lot of people spend to much time in the specific phase doing hard training and this really becomes easy when peaking only once a year. Say you're a runner who peaks for summer races it comes pretty easy to do.
Obviously I wouldnt recommend the double threshold sessions for non-elites. But slowing down this intervals or tempos so you can do more volume like sugguested i think is great.
Conclusions:
Lydiard Training is best.
The majority of runners overtrain on their own and also with coaches!
citius5000 wrote:
So for me the strength phase is really the longest phase if possible with generally the first workout of the week being cruise intervals (eg mile repeats with 1min rest) and the second a tempo run. The third hard day being the long run. The specific phase I keep in the threshold workout as the second workout of the week but now I alternate each week the tempo run with the cruise intervals. The key is making sure your estimating these paces off current fitness and not goal fitness. The first workout of the week is the race specific one. I only spend five weeks in this phase before tapering at least two week out from the last planned meet. So basically the specific or what can be considered the really hard training is 7 weeks. One thing you have to consider is a lot of people spend to much time in the specific phase doing hard training and this really becomes easy when peaking only once a year. Say you're a runner who peaks for summer races it comes pretty easy to do.
Obviously I wouldnt recommend the double threshold sessions for non-elites. But slowing down this intervals or tempos so you can do more volume like sugguested i think is great.
I agree but it seems like your best point is to say that training must be done over lots of time and it has to be varied to have the best effect!
Jed Clampett wrote:
Conclusions:
Lydiard Training is best.
The majority of runners overtrain on their own and also with coaches!
QFE. The amount of people I see doing their "Threshold" and "tempo" work way too fast is incredible.
det gar ganske bra wrote:
Superspikesposter wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Interesting that Gjert Ingebrigtsen would lie about the amount of correspondence he had with Marius, especially since it seemed that Gjert learned 80+% of his method from the correspondence with Marius.
Yes, it’s very odd and a bit embarrassing.
It is open and common knowledge in Norway where his root knowledge has come from.
Dude(s)! The easy interpretation here is that they had two conversations about failures. Winners don't dwell much on that. God knows how many times they've talked about building success. Think about it; it's not like you strike up a conversation this way:
- Hey former pro, can you spare a few minutes to tell us about all the things you did wrong and nothing else?
Alfie wrote:
Could this be of benefit to the recreational runner? Not double threshold sessions, but two threshold sessions each week, dropping the faster work? Only introduce the faster stuff later.
some of my best old man fitness came from doing one day with 5 to 6 miles of 1 to 3 mile tempo intervals and another day with 16x400 at 5k pace. maybe some 8 second hills or short sprints sprinkled in
If I recall correctly from an article when Loudon Valley (sp?) high school was the top high school team the Hunters pretty much followed Tinman's program until the end of the season and then switched to more traditional 5k type sharping/peaking works. Not sure how may weeks out they did this from NXN. I generally like this approach when doing this type of training program.
peekay wrote:
Alfie wrote:
Could this be of benefit to the recreational runner? Not double threshold sessions, but two threshold sessions each week, dropping the faster work? Only introduce the faster stuff later.
I’m a broken record on this, but if you want to apply this to a recreational runner the best place to look is at the Ingebrigtsen older brother Kristoffer. All his training is on Strava
He does the same weekly schedule but only 1 run per day
Tues- threshold fartlek
Thurs - threshold intervals
Sat - longer threshold intervals
Sun - “long” run
You can look at what he’s doing now and be like hold sh*t that’s a lot. But if you go back a year, he has gone from 1:29 to 1:15 in the HM and probably will drop a couple minutes again whenever he runs another one. The progression has been very gradual and most weeks he does the same thing for several weeks in a row before bumping the pace or volume. You see almost no progression over a month or 2, but after a year he is doing WAY more and WAY faster.
My guess, the faster work is considered unnecessary for older or less developed runner as it is higher injury risk. There is so much aerobic development an adult recreational runner can have before speed is the limiting factor.
If I recall correct, he never hit the pace of his 1:15 HM in training. Training smart and training a lot often means not training to hard. So many fails in this
Peekay -- whats the link to his strava?
Can anyone explain further the science behind Marius's use of heart rate in his system of "green light", "yellow light, and "red light" during treadmill threshold sessions? This is at the bottom of the article under "3. Experiment with Threshold Running."
If his warm-up HR is low but his HR during the session is high and his lactate levels were stable then he had a "green light" to push workouts longer. While if he could not raise his HR high while running at threshold that was a "red light" and he would cut the workout short.
Better trained athletes can train at a higher percentage of their max HR at their lactate threshold? Why is that? The closer one trains to their max HR the faster they will run, so as long as they don't surpass their threshold they will get the greatest benefit without the costs of training past threshold?
Why cut a session short if HR cannot be elevated? Indication of fatigue? Will not get the same benefit from a threshold session at lower HR as one would at a higher HR?