Is The RunningLane Course 5K? Or Is It Short?

nprunner74 wrote:

The timer was set up at 1 mile, 2.1 and finish. But thanks for belittling Alabama. Well done.

Same guys questions are the ones who think they only ran 7 laps last spring at Arcadia.

For what it is worth my son has run this course 4 times this season. It was not his “PR” course. Today he PRd by over 30 seconds. He was not in the gold race, but there still was a different kind of energy out there today and great conditions. That is where all the fast times are coming from.

fh wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ajv8d5ZRiQ

My favorite running commentary always involves "It's going to be a foot race." Said many times

Steel Tapeless wrote:

coachbach wrote:

I measured it at 75m long

It would be great if that were the case and that we had such an immensely talented group of kids that all peaked perfectly weeks after their state meets. However, I'm siding with the 75m short report and even if that were correct , the times still are impressive!

It’s impressive because it’s an actual 5k. Side note, where is the certification on the MIS course?

Xc courses aren't certified. It's near impossible to measure them accurately.

Now, if this course has a smooth surface, like packed dirt, send someone out with a Jones counter on a bike. Ride it 5x and average it. I'm guessing it's not smooth enough for a Jones wheel or any hand held wheel either though. They bounce all over and will measure long on uneven surfaces.

What I was saying is that 75m short is within the margin of error for one wheel. Other people could measure and get it closer to 5k. One man's wheel doesn't make it a fact it's 75m short. Just means that's what I got on my wheel.

coachach wrote:

What I was saying is that 75m short is within the margin of error for one wheel. Other people could measure and get it closer to 5k. One man's wheel doesn't make it a fact it's 75m short. Just means that's what I got on my wheel.

Sure. But it is very easy to verify the accuracy of a wheel on a steel taped calibration course. Then the actual methodology of the measuring process needs to be be done the same way which is obviously non-existent in high school cross country, but exists in high school track. Two people using accurate wheels and using the same measuring process should never be off by more than a handful of meters over a 5000m course.

Your ugly side piece Olga (registered) wrote:

Xc courses aren't certified. It's near impossible to measure them accurately.

Now, if this course has a smooth surface, like packed dirt, send someone out with a Jones counter on a bike. Ride it 5x and average it. I'm guessing it's not smooth enough for a Jones wheel or any hand held wheel either though. They bounce all over and will measure long on uneven surfaces.

One of the course measurers I know in New England actually walks the bike surprisingly straight. He is really good at it. He always follows the tangents and is extremely meticulous. I helped him measure a difficult course once and we actually used a 200' hand tape for any section that he did not feel the wheels were going to be accurate. Our RI state meet course, Ocean State course, and a course in East Greenwhich RI were all measured this way.

They use a bike with the counter on a steel measured 1000 meters just prior to measuring so that tire pressure in not an anomaly on that day. They measure backwards and forwards. If it is off by a certain percentage, they do it all over again until they get it right.

I have a workout spot for my team in a park and I measured it with my assistant coach with a similar tape measure for a 1k loop. It can be done. Honestly, if I was hosting a meet of this caliber, I would have done it manually. It would take me about 3 hours and well worth doing.

This has to be it. No one has ever really tried in XC on a flat course before yesterday. Kids were finally actually inspired to give it their all.

What are your situations that you used hand tape instead of the Jones Counter? Does RI have language on course measuring - such as how close to measure to course boundaries? If not, how are you handling that process?

Wait are you actually claiming that Ritz was a superior junior cross country runner than Jakob Ingerbritsen? You must be joking. One placement at one meet that was far less competitive in the early 2000s is not a justification for comparison. That’s like saying that Cheptegei isn’t as good as Billy Mills because Cheptegei got 2nd in Tokyo and Mills won.

Ritz never ran an equivalent performance to Sahlmans 14:03 and that is easy compare as we have lots of data from both meets. Could Ritz have won yesterday hypothetically? Maybe so, but if he did, it would have been his best achievement of his prep career.

Also I would be interested to see how 2019 Nico Young would have compared on this course considering his margin of victory at NXN over such an amazing class that year.

For all the folks who didn't come to Huntsville who would like to question legitimacy, I hope you find the description below useful. I will admit, I never thought I'd see Ritzenhein's record go down in my life time... but when you see Newbury Park run what they did for a 3 mile early season and then expand it out to 5k weeks later in a championship environment in peak form, It was not out of the ordinary.

From the race website...

Course Construction

Building on the foundations of the old municipal golf course, the City of Huntsville began construction of the Championship Cross Country Course in 2018. Bostick Landscape Architects led the design process with contributions from a cohort of cross-country coaches from the NCAA, USATF, and NFHS levels. The City of Huntsville has a record of constructing world class athletic venues to accommodate regional and national championships, recently displayed in the 2019 opening for the $3.7 million Sand Volleyball Complex at John Hunt Park and the $22 million 2017 renovation of the Huntsville Aquatic Center.

Facility Features

Found in the 428-acre athletic facility of John Hunt Park, the Championship Cross Country Course balances groves of trees and sculpted ponds with an open viewing experience for spectators and recreational community members. The course itself is composed of Bermuda grass and trimmed to optimal competition height during cross country season, and is flanked by signs for 5k, 6k, 8k, and 10k routes. Looping around the course is 2.1 mile of an 8-foot wide rubber path for all-weather recreational use. The spectator experience is unparalleled, featuring unimpeded hillside viewing areas throughout the competition venue. Adjoining the starting area are team tent and vendor areas, with nearby restroom facilities. To ensure that measurements remain stable through seasons and various competition markings, Geodetic Survey GPS signaling datums are used throughout the course. At the finish and key timing locations along the routes, electrical and fiber sources are permanently incorporated into the venue. Since its opening in September 2019, the John Hunt Championship Cross Country facility has hosted major competitions including the 2021 South Regional Championship (NCAA Division I) and the 2020 Gulf South Conference Championships (NCAA Division II), along with the ACAA State Championships since 2019.

Course Detail

The starting line is 100m wide. From the start, the course is straight for 650m, with the first 250m being 1% downgrade, flattening out for 100m then up at 1% for 300m to the first turn. The course does not narrow to 10m in width until 650m. The first turn is a gradual sweeping right with a downhill grade of 3%, and flattens as you cross the 1K mark. The course remains flat for the next 400m and then takes a sweeping right turn around a pond towards the 1 Mile mark. The next 400+m are flat with slight bends until a left turn takes you uphill at a 2% grade over a 150m stretch. just past the 2K mark is a left over a slight downhill into a sweeping right turn. The next stretch of 400m begins with a 2% uphill grade for 100m. The course then takes a wide 180-degree left turn before straightening prior to the 3K mark. The next 300m are straight and flat as it crosses the 2 Mile mark and leads to a 2% downhill grade for 100m. A sweeping right turn covering 75m leads to a 250m stretch at 6% uphill grade. Upon cresting the hill the grade goes downward at a 2% grade for 250m, then flat for 25m before crossing the 4K mark, where it doglegs left. The course stays straight for 250m and then makes a 150m long sweeping right turn over a 1% uphill grade before straightening out and declining at 3% over 200m. This stretch continues flat for 150m until the 4750m mark, where it makes a gradual right turn over 100m, with the final 150m being straight to the finish line.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWXGuXCApMZ-8ODHOD8ehm2sG-q52cn5bkIruauPQ20/edit

Alabama does not need any help disparaging it's own record on education, ranked 47th to 50th nationally. Don't be so sensitive. You do produce a number of fantastic athletes.

red flag wrote:

Heard a report of a coach there who wheeled it as 75 meters short. Whatever the distance, can we just stop with the emphasis on times in xc already???

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice write up but it does not state how the course was measured and with what.

All I know is that two years in a row a new course produced seemingly historic times and huge PRs. That says that for whatever reason, the course is skewing the results towards superfast xc times.

astro wrote:

All I know is that two years in a row a new course produced seemingly historic times and huge PRs. That says that for whatever reason, the course is skewing the results towards superfast xc times.

Yep, and if this was a road course or track invite and a national record were set the course or track would need to be verified as the proper length. Unfortunately, in high school cross country, the powers that be have never came up with any course measuring rules and we end up with these interesting debates on who is the best ever and try and compare times from different courses which is very difficult to do.

I think this line answers your question.

"To ensure that measurements remain stable through seasons and various competition markings, Geodetic Survey GPS signaling datums are used throughout the course."

"How many are there?" and "how are they positioned throughout the course?" are questions that remain.

It's clear that this is not your local high school course. I am sure there were plenty of nerds involved in setting it up. I am firmly in the camp that times don't matter - the best race ever run may not have the best time. However, I am interested in the technical details out of curiousity.

I would think there is some engineer involved with the course design and set up that would love to tell the story.

Wejo/Rojo - Get on this. Find out who that person is and get them to talk!

I don't think the issue is course length but course design. Long downhills and flats, and a packed down running surface. Nothing wrong with building a very fast course. But talking about supposed XC records is essentially pointless unless we are talking about course records.