A closer look at EPO-era performances

Gary, have you ever heard of Lance Armstrong? Hint: He's a white non-African.

Barrel of Laughs wrote:

I knew it! wrote:

d) running is worse than cycling.

Lance Armstrong will be happy to hear that! ?

Haha, no. Then he'd lose his defense of "everybody else did it".

Lance Armsrong, the man who rode up Alpe d'Huez at 7 watts per kilo>

Except it wasn't 7 it was 6 watts per kilo. But hey 7 sounds better, we'll go with 7 because that's how journalism works right?

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true.

pariah wrote:

Lance Armsrong, the man who rode up Alpe d'Huez at 7 watts per kilo>

Except it wasn't 7 it was 6 watts per kilo. But hey 7 sounds better, we'll go with 7 because that's how journalism works right?

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true.

No, the guy who was a decent rider and became untouchable with drugs. Particularly EPO. Everyone knows that except you and Gary.

He's the guy who rode up the mountain(many of them in fact) faster than everyone else. Nobody cares about watts per kilo. It's point A to B that counts, nothing more.

Do they give watts per kilo medals now? That's how evasive reductionism works now?

Lance was never a 'decent rider' you know that, stop trolling. And from the early 90s onwards, EPO doping was rife in pro cycling. You know that too.

The belief in blood boosting is nothing but pseudoscience that has become conventional wisdom.

Do you blindly accept all conventional wisdom or do you question it? Or is it more profitable as a journalist to go with the flow until the wind changes direction? Okay that was a rhetorical question.

Back in 1991 I believed the EPO dogma. But I started asking awkward questions. You know, the kind of stuff no-one wants to answer, like how exactly can you utilize more oxygen without overheating, basic physiology stuff like that.

But then I'm an iconoclast and that's what we iconoclasts do, ask awkward questions, that make people uncomfortable with their beliefs.

pariah wrote:

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true.

But blood doping increases RBCs which in turn increases oxygen delivery to the working muscles...nothing new there. ?

pariah wrote:

Back in 1991 I believed the EPO dogma. But I started asking awkward questions. You know, the kind of stuff no-one wants to answer, like how exactly can you utilize more oxygen without overheating, basic physiology stuff like that.

But then I'm an iconoclast and that's what we iconoclasts do, ask awkward questions, that make people uncomfortable with their beliefs.

Jon Orange - is rekrunner taking the day off and you're filling in for him?

Think This One Through wrote:

pariah wrote:

Just make up any old bullshit, eventually enough of it will stick. EPO doping increases oxygen uptake, everyone knows that, so it must be true.

But blood doping increases RBCs which in turn increases oxygen delivery to the working muscles...nothing new there. ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3573270

That's the stupid mythology everyone believes, that more red blood cells = more oxygen delivery = better performance. It's just idiotic.

Yeah -- his best marathon is 2:46. Looks like EPO worked wonders for cycling, but for running he is far from a top runner. Well, EPO and steroids, blood transfusions, HGH, cortisone, steroids, testosterone, actovegin, etc., and surrounding himself with a team. It's weird how testing was a formidable barrier for non-Africans in running, but not cycling.

Eddy Hellofit wrote:

Rekrunner, have you ever heard of Lance Armstrong? Hint: He's a white non-African.

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- his best marathon is 2:46. Looks like EPO worked wonders for cycling, but for running he is far from a top runner.

Well, EPO and steroids, blood transfusions, HGH, cortisone, steroids, testosterone, actovegin, etc., and surrounding himself with a team.

It's weird how testing was a formidable barrier for non-Africans in running, but not cycling.

Eddy Hellofit wrote:

Rekrunner, have you ever heard of Lance Armstrong? Hint: He's a white non-African.

Obfuscation. Jon/Gary.

Iconoclast is a euphemism for moran.

Increased oxygen uptake and overheating is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant.

Once again, the topic turns away from distance running, to other sports like cycling ( or skiing or racewalking). I interpret this as a concession and a confirmation of a true lack of substantial examples in distance running. Was Lance "untouchable" with drugs? Did he break any world records? Lance's TDF victories were always a team effort. After becoming a young World Champion in 1993 (was that before he was "untouchable with drugs"?) his World Champion and Olympic palmares are rather thin. - In 1998 World Championship, he was 4th. - At the 2000 Olympics, he was: o 3rd in the time trial, behind Jan Ulrich (by 26s) and Viatcheslav Ekimov (by 34s) o 13th in a 239 km road race, won by Jan Ulrich (by 1m29s) -As far as other grand tours, he was 4th in the 1998 Veulta. Did he do anything else of note? These are not bad results, but as an alltime great, I'm not even convinced that Lance was the best American of all time. Here are a list of many all time greats, where Greg Lemond makes the list, but Lance was only mentioned as a footnote preventing Indurain from being a true triple-winner in 1993:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Crown_of_Cycling Lance was famous for his own "Triple Crown" scandal, where he was accused of conspiring with others to win three races for his first $1 million prize.

Orange Juice Reduction wrote:

No, the guy who was a decent rider and became untouchable with drugs. Particularly EPO. Everyone knows that except you and Gary.

He's the guy who rode up the mountain(many of them in fact) faster than everyone else. Nobody cares about watts per kilo. It's point A to B that counts, nothing more.

Do they give watts per kilo medals now? That's how evasive reductionism works now?

rekrunner wrote:

Of course -- the BEST demonstration of EPO-era doping is SPAIN. Thank you.

Negative...the "BEST" and most profound demonstration would be Morocco:

Boulami: 7:53.17 (all-time best!) (EPO)

Mourhit: 7:26.62 (7th all-time),12:49.71 (25th all-time), 26:52.30 (32nd all-time) (EPO)

Gourmi: 12:50.25 (31st all-time), 2:05:30 (94th all-time) (ABP/Hematological anomalies)

Ramzi: 3:29.14 (50th all-time) (CERA)

Laâlou: 3:29.53 (71st all-time)(EPO)

These are 5 runners from one small country posting times in the top 100 all-time lists.

These are only the confirmed positive cases - no idea of how many other top performances have escaped detection.

There have been dozens & dozens of EPO positives & ABP sanctions with Moroccan runners over the last 3 decades including 5 bans/sanctions announced just last year.

Old habits are hard to break. ?

Bringing up Lance Armstrong and cycling in a thread about distance running was already obfuscation. Bringing it back on topic is not.

Orange Juice Reduction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- his best marathon is 2:46. Looks like EPO worked wonders for cycling, but for running he is far from a top runner.

Well, EPO and steroids, blood transfusions, HGH, cortisone, steroids, testosterone, actovegin, etc., and surrounding himself with a team.

It's weird how testing was a formidable barrier for non-Africans in running, but not cycling.

Obfuscation...

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- his best marathon is 2:46. Looks like EPO worked wonders for cycling, but for running he is far from a top runner.

Well, EPO and steroids, blood transfusions, HGH, cortisone, steroids, testosterone, actovegin, etc., and surrounding himself with a team.

It's weird how testing was a formidable barrier for non-Africans in running, but not cycling.

Eddy Hellofit wrote:

Rekrunner, have you ever heard of Lance Armstrong? Hint: He's a white non-African.

You're using obfuscation to dodge the issue. Who cares about his Marathon time? We don't ask Ramzi to win the Tour to prove EPO works.

But Lance probably ran just under 3 clean and then doped to run 2:46.

And we are back to Morocco as an answer to non-African response to EPO.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Of course -- the BEST demonstration of EPO-era doping is SPAIN. Thank you.

Negative...the "BEST" and most profound demonstration would be Morocco:

Boulami: 7:53.17 (all-time best!) (EPO)

Mourhit: 7:26.62 (7th all-time),12:49.71 (25th all-time), 26:52.30 (32nd all-time) (EPO)

Gourmi: 12:50.25 (31st all-time), 2:05:30 (94th all-time) (ABP/Hematological anomalies)

Ramzi: 3:29.14 (50th all-time) (CERA)

Laâlou: 3:29.53 (71st all-time)(EPO)

These are 5 runners from one small country posting times in the top 100 all-time lists.

These are only the confirmed positive cases - no idea of how many other top performances have escaped detection.

There have been dozens & dozens of EPO positives & ABP sanctions with Moroccan runners over the last 3 decades including 5 bans/sanctions announced just last year.

Old habits are hard to break. ?

rekrunner wrote:

Bringing up Lance Armstrong and cycling in a thread about distance running was already obfuscation.

Bringing it back on topic is not.

Orange Juice Reduction wrote:

Obfuscation...

All endurance events benefit in the same manner. Science!

Cathal Lombard

In case you missed it... Bringing up Lance Armstrong and cycling in a thread about distance running was already obfuscation. Bringing it back on topic is not.

Orange Juice Reduction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Yeah -- his best marathon is 2:46. Looks like EPO worked wonders for cycling, but for running he is far from a top runner.

Well, EPO and steroids, blood transfusions, HGH, cortisone, steroids, testosterone, actovegin, etc., and surrounding himself with a team.

It's weird how testing was a formidable barrier for non-Africans in running, but not cycling.

You're using obfuscation to dodge the issue. Who cares about his Marathon time? We don't ask Ramzi to win the Tour to prove EPO works.

But Lance probably ran just under 3 clean and then doped to run 2:46.

That's not what historical performances tell us...

The Obfuscatater wrote:

All endurance events benefit in the same manner. Science!

rekrunner wrote:

And we are back to Morocco as an answer to non-African response to EPO.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

Negative...the "BEST" and most profound demonstration would be Morocco:

Boulami: 7:53.17 (all-time best!) (EPO)

Mourhit: 7:26.62 (7th all-time),12:49.71 (25th all-time), 26:52.30 (32nd all-time) (EPO)

Gourmi: 12:50.25 (31st all-time), 2:05:30 (94th all-time) (ABP/Hematological anomalies)

Ramzi: 3:29.14 (50th all-time) (CERA)

Laâlou: 3:29.53 (71st all-time)(EPO)

These are 5 runners from one small country posting times in the top 100 all-time lists.

These are only the confirmed positive cases - no idea of how many other top performances have escaped detection.

There have been dozens & dozens of EPO positives & ABP sanctions with Moroccan runners over the last 3 decades including 5 bans/sanctions announced just last year.

Old habits are hard to break. ?

You seriously can't think of any white athletes busted for EPO after drastically improved performances? Maybe white people are actually more pure and clean as a rule or better at micro-dosing but that doesn't change the fact that those busted benefitted from taking it.