Soup to Nuts - Letsrun Train Me

I should say that I warmed up this week with a couple of minutes on an ancient stationary bike, then a lite version of my core routine and a few of the exercises to test for proper weight and proper spacing between the stations. Cooled down with a few more minutes on the stationary bike after I did 2 sets of the circuit.

PhysMech wrote:

ID, that result was a little faster than I had anticipated, but it is just the result of contributions from all three of the areas of focus I mentioned earlier. Training is going really well, nutrition/fitness is sort of off the charts after the diet change I made in November, and the running mechanics have contributed as well. Lots of contributions all at once - I'm probably gonna get injured soon! (kidding, I hope)

As I read through this whole thread I have been wondering how you guys that are able to have this tremendous diet and recovery-food discipline can pull it off? What I mean is, when I have been doing two sessions a day, I am able to do the whey protein after each session, and eat a healthy lunch and dinner, but these suggestions of "a slice of turkey" every two hours? "Slow-trickle and fast trickle" proteins?

How do you pull off, the food, the supplements, the food that spoils, the food that upsets stomachs, not eating 4 hours before sessions, eating supplements with food and without food, etc.?

I am 40 and I work and I don't think it would be acceptable if I ate a small meal or a snack at 10 and 2 as well as lunch hour and took a slow-trickle protein break (turkey) every 2 hours. It is like they say at work "don't take so many coffee breaks that a customer might miss you twice in a day, he will start to wonder if we are really in the coffee business."

While I understand that planning and sacrifice are part of a good nutrition plan (and that means more time preparing and cleaning and shopping than a less rigorous plan), but I can think of not so many jobs that have a fridge, blender, sink, room for all that food ...

Here is what I was able to pull off:

6:15 - wake and dress - take Iron + Vitamin C + Folate (needs to be on empty stomach); drive to session

6:45 - 1st training session

7:45 - done

7:45-8:00 - drive home

8:00-45 - eat whey protein in skim; 1 yogurt; 1 glass water; all the water-soluble supps like L-Carnitine, etc.

shower and dress

8:45-9:00 - drive to work

9:00 - work

- drink water during this time; bodybuilders tell me to eat a whey shake around mid-morning but that is 1000kcal JUST in whey protein per day and I am not really hungry for it.

1:00-2:00 - lunch - sandwich on whole wheat, vegetables (sometimes with DIP!), and a few cookies (small) If my tail is dragging I will have a diet soda, but usually water. I CANNOT imagine facing your bread and mustard sandwich and a glass of orange juice for lunch. First of all, how are you gonna have a pitcher of orange juice at work without somebody nicking it?

2:00 - back to work

- drink more water; I work in an "Office Space" environment, so sometimes it is just nice to walk to the water cooler once an hour and the bathroom just before that to pee.

6:00 out

6:00-15 drive to session

6:30-8:30 2nd session

8:30 drive home

8:45 - whey protein and water FIRST - I find it cuts my appetite; then dinner - try to eat some healthy fats and proteins; take all my fat-soluble supps now.

10:00 bed if lucky

11:00 bed if unlucky

I am lucky in that I don't have to work until 9:00. I also have no kids or dog that need attention. I also live in an area that is easy to get around. The training site is 7.5 miles from my house!! Work is close too.

I do this same pattern M-F and Saturday I do "7-hour Saturday" ... 2-3 sessions back-to-back of usually 2:00 rowing and 5 hours cycling OR 1:30 hard rowing, 3:00 hard cycling, 2:00 ride with girlfriend.

Sadly I am no longer a runner. I got down to 5'11" / 153-158 consistently on this schedule.

So, this is primarily aimed at PhysMech (does that mean Physicist/ME?), because he detailed what (to me) would be a difficult or impossible eating schedule. But anyone who wants to take a shot at detailing their day, particularly if you feel like you are very successful at it, or very unsuccessful, I want to learn how you do it.

I think some supplements haven't been mentioned. Anti-aging supplements increase recovery times. Right PM. If you see a spike in performance at age 45-60 you know something illegal is going on.

I take Vitamin A, all the Vitamin B's separately, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, Vitamin E, Biotin, Omega-3 Fish Oils, Folate, Cobalt and Copper (for RBC formation) with dinner, because a few are fat-soluble.

I take IRON with Vitamin C (better absorption) and L-Carnitine in the morning, on an empty stomach.

It costs a LOT more than if I took nothing, but the health problems that forced me to stop running seem better when I take it all. Also, when you aren't eating an awful lot besides the whey protein, you aren't getting enough of the vitamins every day ... even for RBC production.

And for those that are clamoring to type that I am going to overdose on the fat-soluble ones, wait for it, I got checked and even though I am outside what I thought was A LOT, I was deficient for Vitamin D, 17 or something. The Doc said they like to see you between 30 and 100. So for those familiar, the typical capsule is 400IU because that is the RDA. I was taking 1000 IU daily before I got tested as deficient. They put me on a prescription of 50,000 IU taken 3 X a week for 12 weeks!!!

It only got me up to 63 or so ... mcg/dcl or some such unit. Vitamin E was in a normal range, as were the B-vitamins, but NONE were high. So at least for me that "toxicity" theory was not true.

(Hopefully) Only going to post this once. I feel it is very important for anyone reading this thread to realize:

THERE ARE NO PEDS BEING USED IN MY TRAINING.

Now or ever. And as for the future - not...gonna...happen. I was an age-graded 91%+ guy back in the day so getting to 88%+ now, after finally getting back to my college race weight (152), is to be somewhat expected. I spent over a year stuck at 160 lbs and would almost certainly still be stuck there if not for the diet change. When it comes to willpower,

Opioid peptides > Me.

My diet was pretty haphazard in my 20's and compared to what we know today, it was like living in the stone age, but we tried to do the best we could. With all the current access to valuable information, there is just no reason to screw this up anymore.

As far as training, I really believe you will see a big change in how the professional runners train in the next few years. Old school workouts will be re-thought and improved results will be attained, both for the professionals and the hobbyists. The rapid results I've gotten from my training are not magic or the result of cheating or PEDs. It's just using a lot of the information out there and thinking a little outside the box.

As far as running mechanics, not gonna say much about it, but any insights for me have come after the age of 38, with the latest important item coming just 7 weeks ago. Improving running mechanics actually takes a LOT of work, and these gains are really only applicable to serious hobbyists or professionals. There are no easy changes which will produce instant performance gains. The reason I don't want to talk about mechanics in this venue is that trying to apply these ideas without a full understanding of the issue would greatly increase the risk of injury.

To address proteins, since it has been brought up recently, whey protein is an extremely fast protein. Basically, it's in and out of your system in about 90 minutes. You need to get some slower acting proteins working for you as a runner, like casein or meats.

To build red blood cells, I take a B-complex (smallest dosage I can find) at least twice a day, for the B-12, and make sure I get enough iron. For me, I eat a fair amount of red meat, with vitamin C, in the form of extra lean (96/4) ground beef, cooked at low heat in a cast iron skillet. Keeping the meat under 320 degrees keeps the creatine from binding with the protein in the beef and forming a carcinogen. I would encourage everyone to search about carcinogens and how they are produced by heat/cooking. I have not mentioned this before (still waiting for the unmarked black sedans to roll up to my house for some of the stuff I've put out there on this thread) but there is almost no high temperature cooked/baked food in my diet anymore.

I also want to thank Peter Coe for writing "Better Training for Distance Runners", which is where I got the iron and Vitamin C idea from, initially.

1440toGo wrote:

I take IRON with Vitamin C (better absorption) and L-Carnitine in the morning, on an empty stomach.

Just curious, are you taking L-Carnitine, or Acetyl-L-Carnitine?

PM,Thanks for that post. I have a lot of admiration for what you're doing and the proof is in the pudding for you. Keep up the good work!(PS - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

Impossible Dream wrote:- I'm giving up sweets for Lent and starting a few days early(today). Perhaps this will be the key to losing some additional pounds. Honestly, though, I think these last 10 lbs or so are going to be difficult because I honestly don't have a lot of fat left to lose.

Ok, so I can be resourceful when I want to be. So whereas I do think the extra 10 lbs will be hard to lose, I can admit when I'm just wrong. Using varying sources (a body fat scale and 2 different calculators on the internet) I can confirm that my body fat % is between 14 and 15%. Not bad for the average fit soon to be 41 year old, but obviously indicating a fair amount of fat I can find and unload.

Good run last night. I did a 10 miler on a bark chip loop in a local park. Started out a little frisky for the first 4, decided I better back off and did so for about 4 3/4 and then blasted it a little bit for the yail end getting into the 5:45 range for pacing. It felt good.

Hill repeats today.

Impossible Dream wrote:

I can confirm that my body fat % is between 14 and 15%.

Haha, I can't tell you how many times I've thought I didn't have that much fat to lose. After my recent 15k, I caught up with a super-fit (5'11", 136 lbs.) friend of mine. We started talking about the pinch locations to measure body fat, such as behind the arm, just below the shoulder. Pinching him there is like pinching my forearm (1/8"?), while I am still probably about 3/8". My friend is still pretty new to running, but he really looks like a world class runner. It's funny to see the fear in the eyes of the top runners at these races when they look at him.

He knows A LOT about diet, nutrition, and legal herbs and supplements. Maybe I can get him to contribute here, if I can get him to focus on running long enough. :D

1440toGo wrote:

As I read through this whole thread I have been wondering how you guys that are able to have this tremendous diet and recovery-food discipline can pull it off?....

I am 40 and I work and I don't think it would be acceptable if I ate a small meal or a snack at 10 and 2 as well as lunch hour and took a slow-trickle protein break (turkey) every 2 hours.

Well, I spend very little time worrying about food. I certainly don't take any supplements or blend stuff. But I'm quite lucky on the job front: I run a small business so nobody is going to complain if I take a 5min break or eat at my desk. And I couldn't care less if my employees take one formal lunch hour or a few mini-breaks - whatever keeps them fresh. Our office also has a fridge, sink, plates etc and we have a supermarket opposite.

But even if that wasn't the case, surely you can keep some cereal bars or nuts in your desk drawer or coat pocket? Or contribute some snacks for you and your neighbours?

PM's going into a lot of detail, but if you distill his posts down, what really matters for you is probably taking an extra little snack mid morning, and another mid afternoon so you're fuelled up for the evening session.

You don't have to go straight to the 100%-sciencey-optimum-nutrition-lifestyle. Just try to make a small improvement over what you did in February.

Impossible Dream wrote:

Here's the whole circuit:

....

Double-bounces? I think I'll need you to help me out on this term. I am jumping side to side with both feet, but I'm not resting until I'm finished.

Circuits look really good. Well done. Covers almost all the body.

On the squat-to-press - that was just an idea for something surprisingly tough you can do with 2 dumbells at home. You have a push and a pull so that's fine. The only thing I see missing is some sort of twist/rotation exercise. Does anything spring to mind with the equipment you have (e.g. is there a cable to pull?)

On the jumps: that's really good going, most people have to take little micro-rests every 3-4 jumps (which ends up looking like a double bounce). This means you are regaining the right lower-leg reflexes to run on your toes well. As the next step, see if you can find something safe to jump over (e.g. cardboard box) up to 6" high. We used wooden benches in college but kids now use bendy foam. If timing is feasible, count reps you can do in 30sec and try to get faster. Here's what we want...

If you feel like basing this on time rather than reps, feel free. I was thinking of buying a 'circuit timer' but it seems there a bunch of iPhone apps which will do it far better (secondsapp.com, intervalsapp.com etc).

I'm actually going to try this for my own circuits tomorrow night, as I am going to start migrating from 'weight' to 'speed-endurance' exercises. In college we used to do things like 40sec work, 20sec rest.

Keep up the good work!

Just an observer wrote:

I think some supplements haven't been mentioned. Anti-aging supplements increase recovery times. Right PM. If you see a spike in performance at age 45-60 you know something illegal is going on.

Don't know if this was aimed at a certain poster or in general but I know PM and have talked with him and raced him. His improvement is through fine tuning a bunch of factors he has mentioned in this thread. While anti-aging drugs are becoming an issue (ask Frank Shorter) with masters running I for one know PM is not using them.

eurodonkey wrote:

PM's going into a lot of detail, but if you distill his posts down, what really matters for you is probably taking an extra little snack mid morning, and another mid afternoon so you're fuelled up for the evening session.

You don't have to go straight to the 100%-sciencey-optimum-nutrition-lifestyle. Just try to make a small improvement over what you did in February.

Exactly. Nutrition and giving your body what it needs when it needs it will take quite a while to get your mind around, much less learn how to execute it in the real world on the fly.

Do I need some carbs for fuel right now?

Do I need some protein for rebuilding purposes right now?

How is my omega-6 to omega-3 fat balance, and is now a good time to get some fat into my diet?

Once I know what I need, what would be a good portion size right now to fill the requirements?

If you can answer all these questions pretty correctly and be able to execute an optimum plan, that's end game performance. I'll let you know what that's like if I ever get there. :D

florida oldtimer wrote:

While anti-aging drugs are becoming an issue (ask Frank Shorter) with masters running I for one know PM is not using them.

Yes I am. I get some HGH every day. About 3 hours into my sleep! :D

I never would have doubted anyone on this thread, but I understand the issue. There is a very high level masters runner in my are who went through a 2-3 year period of what looked like normal aging decline followed by a year+ of battling injuries. Fast forward a year and he is racing as fast or faster than he was 5 years ago. Several have speculated there may be more to it than meets the eye.

Another friend is heavily into top level masters T&F and we were talking a couple of years ago about how many people that were always participants in the yearly USATF masters Nationals that mysteriously stopped showing up the year they implemented drug testing.

PhysMech wrote:

Just curious, are you taking L-Carnitine, or Acetyl-L-Carnitine?

Acetyl-L-Carnitine, I just don't type that fast.

PhysMech wrote:

florida oldtimer wrote:

While anti-aging drugs are becoming an issue (ask Frank Shorter) with masters running I for one know PM is not using them.

Yes I am. I get some HGH every day. About 3 hours into my sleep! :D

Haha... Actually it's 90 min. into deep sleep the anterior pituary gland starts to do its thing. But it might be 3 hours for you elderly types.

Weekly Summary:

2/27 - 14 miles at 7:13 pace, last couple of miles relatively hard.

2/28 - AM 32 min, PM 68 min + 6 x strides

3/1 - AM 32 min, PM 2 mi + warm up plus 5 x strides, 8000 m tempo in 31:22 on the track, 1 mi + cool down

3/2 - AM 32 min, PM 72 min

3/3 - AM 32 min, PM 68 min + 6 x strides

3/4 - AM 32 min, PM 73 min w/ a mile towards the end in sub 6 and few extra minutes cool down.

3/5 - 2.5 mi warm up, 10 x 60 sec TM hill repeats (7% grade, 6 min pace), 2 mi cool down

Totals, 12 sessions, 84 miles

Supplemental - Core Everyday except Saturday

- Sunday did heavy leg weights same as the week before but managed 10 reps on each leg on the Bulgarian Single Leg Squats

- Monday did lighter upper body weights

- Wednesday Circuit Training

On balance, my best week of training this year. Hopefully I'll carry some momentum into the final week of this cycle.

I've got some additional thoughts to share but short on time right now.

Started this week out right with my usual Sunday morning 14 miler. I could definitely feel some fatigue on the uphills this morning, but nothing too bad.

Here's to everyone having a great week!

That's a fantastic week. 84 miles is equal to the highest I ever did (mileage wasn't cool in the 80s/90s...)

Just 56 for me, carefully trying out the leg and having rests to make sure it didn't react, but I am pretty sure I'm better. After a couple of tries my tempo pace came back to 5:50ish, but the recovery ability isn't quite there yet. I also had a reaction in my back to two days of driving last weekend, and have been fighting to keep it mobile; I have a booking with a particularly fierce massage therapist tomorrow so if you hear screams from somewhere in the East around breakfast time, that's me...

10 Runs - 84 miles for me this week too! How odd is that. That is my all time high also. Good week here, but I know I HAVE to start core work tomorrow. Part of what kept me from having better workouts Tues. and Sun. was directly related to core strength.

I'm super impressed with the way the rest of you are able to monitor and regulate your nutrition. I'm getting a little better, but my idea of improvement is "Eat less junk, eat more/different veggies, drink more water."

My heel is still getting closer and closer to 100%. Interestingly enough, the fact that I'm adding in faster paces seems to be helping the healing process, not hindering it. Trust me, I'm still being a bit cautious though.