Amby Burfoot says it out loud - Chepngetich is doping

rekrunner wrote:

HRE wrote:

I don't know how long you've been around the sport. Blood doping was not always discussed as clandestinely as other kinds of "artificial" help because unlike most of those other kinds of help it was perfectly legal for many years. There was a stigma about it for many people and I know there were athletes who did it and kept it quiet even though there were no consequences for doing it because of that stigma. But not everyone held that view and a few talked about it more openly. Leppilammpi was very open about his experiences with it and was well paid for being that way.

Maybe not as clandestinely, but doesn't that stigma mean there were others who weren't talking about it? Take Viren for example. Did he blood dope? There have been hundreds of threads on that, and we may never really know. You say Snell heard and said something, but said nothing publicly. And who knows what the USSR was doing.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

EPO was not created as a drug until the late '80s and used by athletes till the '90's. So what you say was discovered by French scientists is as usual completely irrelevant.

The second point about blood doping is equally irrelevant as blood doping didn't feature in distance running until at least the early seventies. You are either too stupid to follow a discussion or endlessly absorbed in seeking deflections.

You're beginning to sound like a genuine doping denier.

Who knows when athletes started blood doping when athletes don't talk? I think you forget that doping is clandestine. We know a little something about some of the Finns, because some of them talked, but how do we know they were among the first, rather than among the first to talk about it?

Long before synthetic EPO in the late '80s, scientists extracted EPO from human urine in 1977. And again, since 1906, scientists knew that EPO production could be triggered by inducing anemia (e.g. simply withdrawing blood triggers an EPO response). But again, it's not just EPO. We know that blood doping experiments date back to 1947. And we know that athletes are always ahead of the scientists.

How can you know so little about the history of doping in sport?

HRE wrote:

I don't care if people believe me or not. I repeated something a very reliable friend told me from a pretty credible source, one who is way more credible than you. But it contradicted something you said and that set you off as happens here a lot on various threads.

Leppilammppi has been quoted in several places admitting he blood doped. He doesn't always give a date in every source and I'm not going to spend an eternity trying to find one where he does. Same goes for Kuha.

And while I don't care if I'm questioned I get sick being asked the same questions over and over by someone who really doesn't know as much as he thinks he does and simply decides any answers that contradict what he believes must be incorrect answers and who will stop at nothing to get the last word. It's very tiresome. You believe blood doping wasn't happening before the 70s? Fine. Believe it. Other people looking at this thread might find it interesting that there's a longer history of it.

rekrunner wrote:

HRE wrote:

I don't know how long you've been around the sport. Blood doping was not always discussed as clandestinely as other kinds of "artificial" help because unlike most of those other kinds of help it was perfectly legal for many years. There was a stigma about it for many people and I know there were athletes who did it and kept it quiet even though there were no consequences for doing it because of that stigma. But not everyone held that view and a few talked about it more openly. Leppilammpi was very open about his experiences with it and was well paid for being that way.

Maybe not as clandestinely, but doesn't that stigma mean there were others who weren't talking about it? Take Viren for example. Did he blood dope? There have been hundreds of threads on that, and we may never really know. You say Snell heard and said something, but said nothing publicly. And who knows what the USSR was doing.

one model wrote:

"When the editor-in-chief was asked about details by well-known journalist Antero Raevuori, he revealed that a competitor of Jouko Kuha had revealed to him that Kuha had been treated with a transfusion in 1968 for the world record run. The other incident he knew took place in 1970 when a well-known unnamed Finnish MD had told Risto Taimi that Juha Väätäinen had been also treated with a transfusion before he broke the 10,000m national record. (Raevuori, 1971) While the alleged incident took place a year before the 1971 games, a year after the games one Finnish doctor affiliated with the sports circles told knowing for certain that a number of Finnish runners had taken advantages of transfusion already for the 1971 European Championships, and Track & Field News correspondent Cordner Nelson recalled also having heard whispering about double gold medallist Väätäinen having used blood transfusions. (Nelson, 1972)

Väätäinen wasn’t available for the comments, but he was later dismissive about the benefits of blood doping and always maintained that ”naturally” obtained altitude red blood cells were the safest and best ones. While Jouko Kuha specifically denied the allegation, he mentioned having been familiar with the procedure and some other athletes, coaches physiologists told also that they knew that transfusions had taken place in Finland. MD Kaarlo Hartiala, the future Finnish member of the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission also told that the issue wasn’t totally new.” On a theoretical level, the subject has been known for a long time”, he remarked mysteriously. (Raevuori, 1971) Interestingly Tapio Videman – who had conducted the first known attempt outside GIH to research blood doping – also later recalled having heard ”amazingly sounding” rumors about athletes taking transfusions in the late 1960s. (Siukonen, 2001)

With all this evidence, there is an apparent mystery there – how could the method that was revealed in September 1971 be in use first time up to three years before that and how come the Finnish sports circles were aware of the method beforehand?

There are many possible answers to this question. Aside of the possibility that the Finns had invented the method on their own, they could’ve built upon the Swedish research having heard about the line of research, because dozens of Finnish exercise physiologists and sports MDs participated in the 1966 conference held in Finland where the first inconclusive results of Ekblom and Åstrand were discussed. Kaarlo Hartiala – who was the 1968 chief doctor of the Finnish summer Olympic team – also participated in the conference and was very well connected with the Swedish researchers relating to the high altitude adaptation research."

Link:fasterskier.com/2019/04/limiting-facto...