Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Has anyone seen an Iron Curtain around? wrote:

farawayandfast wrote:

1974 European Champs Rome 4x100mW 1. GDR WR

1976 Olympic Games Montreal 400mW 1. Szewinska WR

1976 Olympic Games Montreal 4x400mW 1. GDR WR

1978 European Champs Prague 400mW 1. Koch WR

1980 Olympic Games Moscow 4x100mW 1. GDR WR

1982 European Champs Athens 400mW 1. Koch WR

1983 World Champs Helsinki 400mW 1. Kratochvilova WR

1985 World Cup Canberra 400mW 1. Koch WR

1988 Olympic Games Seoul 4x400mW 1. USSR WR

Those locals with the exception of Moscow aren't exactly located behind the Iron Curtain. Doesn't Deanouk know his geography? Lol.

I certainly know my geography of Europe better than you! Prague was the capital of Czechoslovakia, a communist country in 1978, you fool!

9 cherry picked examples (2 of which are completely irrelevant because they were communist countries) over a 14 year period. And all in major Champs, which I have already stated were easy meets to hit peak form for a week. Where are all the world records by East Europeans set in circuit meets in Western Europe? Your efforts are pretty lame.

Look at some prominent athletes from the GDR or the USSR during this period, and then see how many of their best times were set in their home country or in a country that existed at the time 'behind the Iron Curtain'.

100m - Marlies Gohr (GDR) top 10 times:-

10.81 - Berlin (GDR) 83

10.84 - Zurich 84

10.86 - Potsdam (GDR) 84

10.86 - Berlin 85

10.87 - Dresden (GDR) 84

10.88 - Dresden 77

10.88 - Karl Marx Stadt (KMS) (GDR) 82

10.89 - Erfurt (GDR) 84

10.89 - Neubrandenberg (GDR) 88

10.90 - KMS 83

9 out of her 10 fastest times set in her home country, GDR.

200m - Marita Koch (GDR) top 10 time:-

21.71 - KMS (GDR) 79

21.71 - Potsdam (GDR) 84

21.76 - Dresden (GDR) 82

21.78 - Leipzig (GDR) 85

21.82 - KMS 83

21.87 - Zurich 84

21.90 - Dresden 85

21.90 - Canberra 85

21.91 - Mexico City 79

22.02 - Leipzig 79

7 of her top 10 times set in her home country of the GDR.

800m - Nadezhda Olizarenko (USSR) top 10 times:-

1:53.43 - Moscow 80 (Olympic final)

1:54.85 - Moscow (12.6.1980)

1:55.82 - Prague 78

1:56.0 - Kharkov (USSR) 88

1:56.03 - Kiev (USSR) 88

1:56.09 - Kiev 84

1:56.25 - Leningrad (USSR) 85

1:56.37 - Potsdam (GDR) 84

1:56.63 - Moscow 85

1:56.7 - Moscow 80 (11.6.80)

all 10 set in communist Europe, 8 of them in home country.

1500m - Tatyana Kazankina (USSR) top 10 times: -

3:52.47 - Zurich 80

3:55.0 - Moscow (6.7.80)

3:56.0 - Podolsk (USSR) 76

3:56.56 - Moscow Olympics (1.8.80)

3:58.94 - Rome 80

3:59.12 - Moscow (30.7.80)

3:59.5 - Sochi (USSR) 80

4:00.30 - College Park? 76

4:01.23 - Leningrad 83

4:02.81 - Helsinki 76

6 out of 10 in Russia .

800m - Olaf Beyer (GDR) top 10 times: -

1:43.84 - Prague 78

1:44.31 - Jena (GDR) 81

1:45.09 - Potsdam (GDR) 82

1:45.5 - Potsdam 80

1:45.8 - Erfurt (GDR) 78

1:46.1 - La Habana (Cuba) 77

1:46.3 - Leipzig (GDR) 78

1:46.32 - London 78

1:46.46 - KMS (GDR) 79

1:46.51 - E. Berlin (GDR) 85

9 out of the 10 run in communist countries, 7 of them in home country of GDR.

In concluding, the majority of East European athletes running in the late 70's and 80's ran the majority of their fastest times behind the Iron Curtain.

And your point is? You've listed 22 Wrs, 5 of which are in Communist cities in Eastern Europe, and all (21) but 1 were set in Major Championships or events! I've already stated that they aimed to be at a peak in a major champs and that their drug cycles were geared towards passing tests at those meets.

You have offered 1 example (Kazankina in Zurich 80) that contradicts the point I made. The rest are irrelevant. Well done!

Deanouk wrote:

The general practice for East European (in particular GDR and Russian) athletes from the late 70’s to late 80’s was for them to run their best times (e.g Koch, Gohr) in local/ small meets in their home countries (or at least behind the Iron Curtain)

Deanouk wrote:

And your point is? You've listed 22 Wrs, 5 of which are in Communist cities in Eastern Europe, and all (21) but 1 were set in Major Championships or events!

You have offered 1 example (Kazankina in Zurich 80) that contradicts the point I made. The rest are irrelevant. Well done!

Exactly!

notirrelevant wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

The general practice for East European (in particular GDR and Russian) athletes from the late 70’s to late 80’s was for them to run their best times (e.g Koch, Gohr) in local/ small meets in their home countries (or at least behind the Iron Curtain)

Deanouk wrote:

And your point is? You've listed 22 Wrs, 5 of which are in Communist cities in Eastern Europe, and all (21) but 1 were set in Major Championships or events!

You have offered 1 example (Kazankina in Zurich 80) that contradicts the point I made. The rest are irrelevant. Well done!

Exactly!

And you conveniently edited my paragraph and took the first part out of context! What I actually wrote was ......

The general practice for East European (in particular GDR and Russian) athletes from the late 70’s to late 80’s was for them to run their best times (e.g Koch, Gohr) in local/ small meets in their home countries (or at least behind the Iron Curtain), where they were either not tested or could have any embarrassing test results hidden, rarely run in the larger meets in Western Europe, and then turn up for the major Champs, (having had their drug cycle closely monitored at home to ensure their drug use wouldn’t show at the Champs) and run exceptionally well.

The list provided by the other poster merely supported the 2nd point I made, it in no way contradicted the first point, which I've given plenty of evidence in support of above in an earlier post.

Some people on here can't see the wood for the trees, it would seem. Or otherwise are just acting ignorant.

The same trolls who think Coe and his father were somehow experts in micro-dosing steroids in the 70's/80s, believe that the sophisticated doping regimes of the GDR and other Soviet Bloc countries were incapable of cycling their athlete's PEDs for peak performances at major championships.

how many world records have brits set behind the iron curtain?

Better Training For Distance Runners was co-written with a physiologist.

Coe's training was pretty "sophisticated".

What's so sophisticated about their doping regimes? Wasn't it primarily steroids and T, and some blood transfusions thrown with some of the endurance athletes?

Deanouk wrote:

The general practice for East European (in particular GDR and Russian) athletes from the late 70’s to late 80’s was for them to run their best times (e.g Koch, Gohr) in local/ small meets in their home countries (or at least behind the Iron Curtain),

clear statement, no need to read any further

Deanouk wrote:

where they were either not tested or could have any embarrassing test results hidden, rarely run in the larger meets in Western Europe, and then turn up for the major Champs, (having had their drug cycle closely monitored at home to ensure their drug use wouldn’t show at the Champs) and run exceptionally well.

it was called iron curtain for some reason

the full statement was contraticted by the listed numbers

The great Chinese runner Wang Junxia.

No doubt she was clean hey?

Ma Junren wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0IytBXo6HE

The great Chinese runner Wang Junxia.

No doubt she was clean hey?

Great running form and efficient movement = Great runner.

Simple.

I didn't say I did, I said, that it was "pointed out to you several times now". But indeed I have mentioned it twice, because you have pretended before that the East performed only well behind the Iron Curtain. Now you are at least a bit backpedaling.

In any case: there is nothing special about having most of one's races on one side of the curtain. Check Coe for example.

No. I was pointing out that your statement that the Olympics have "different testing bodies" was irrelevant:

As you know, Helsinki was also carried out by the IAAF.

Indeed. Good, you are agreeing with my statement:

Plus, doping is still easy, but now one has to limit oneself to smaller dosages, and respect the different glowing times.

Straw man. Nobody here claimed that.

Source?

Disagreed. Even if providing more robust OOC testing would be because of Coe, not because of Seppelt and the pressure arising from his work, that would not be "far more positive" than introducing OOC testing.

Let's not forget that Kenya came under this pressure from Wada independent of Coe. In fact, that started with Seppelt's "The Doping Secret: The Dark Side of Athletics", which came out during Diack's tenure, and which Lord Coe strongly opposed! In other words, public pressure forced Coe to act.

Plus, the original statement was about 100 years, not just Diack (initiated to keep and re-analyze frozen samples (in Helsinki again!), and started ABP) or Nebiolo (started OOC).

In the end, no matter how Lord Coe now tries to twist it, his real attitude/intentions showed when he attacked Seppelt and Parisotto and Ashenden, and defended Radcliffe.

Look at some prominent athletes from GBR or USA during this period, and then see how many of their best times were set in a country that existed at the time 'behind the Iron Curtain'.

800m - Sebastian Coe (GBR) top 10 times:-

1:41.73 - Firenze 81

1:42.33 - Oslo 79

1:43.07 - Koln 85

1:43.38 - Bern 89

1:43.64 - Los Angeles 84

1:43.80 - Oslo 83

1:43.84- Oslo 84

1:43.93 -Koblenz 88

1:43.97 - London 78

1:44.0 - London 85

none of his best 10 times were set in communist countries

1500m - Sebastian Coe (GBR) top 10 times:-

3:29.77 - Rieti 86

3:31.95 - Stockholm 81

3:32.03 - Zurich 79

3:32.13 - Zurich 85

3:32.19 - Zurich 80

3:32.39 - Zurich 84

3:32.53 - Los Angeles 84

3:34.05 - Zurich 89

3:34.32 - Hengelo 86

3:35.09 - Bern 86

none of his best 10 times were set in communist countries

800m - Steve Cram (GBR) top 10 times:-

1:42.88 - Zurich 85

1:43.19 - Rieti

1:43.22 - Edinburgh

1:43.42 - Zurich 88

1:43.61 - Oslo 83

1:43.62 - Nice 86

1:44.16 - Birmingham 86

1:44.45 - London 82

1:44.88 - Stuttgart 86

1:45.03 - Gateshead 83

none of his best 10 times were set in communist countries

1500m - Steve Cram (GBR) top 10 times:-

3:29.67 - Nice 85

3:30.15 - Brussels 86

3:30.95 - Brussels 88

3:31.34 - Oslo 85

3:32.43 - Zurich 87

3:31.66 - Oslo 83

3:32.29 - Oslo 85

3:32.93 - Oslo 87

3:33.03 - Sheffield 90

3:33.09 - Knarvik 83

none of his best 10 times were set in communist countries

800m - Steve Ovett (GBR) top 10 times:-

1:44.09 - Prague

1:44.81 - Los Angeles

1:44.91 - Koln 79

1:45.25 - Brussels 83

1:45.38 - Turku 78

1:45.40 - Moscow 80

1:45.44 - Montreal 76

1:45.50 - Zurich 76

1:45.72 - Los Angeles 84

1:45.76 - Rome 74

two of his best 10 times were set in communist countries

1500m - Steve Ovett (GBR) top 10 times:-

3:30.77 - Rieti 83

3:31.36 - Koblenz 80

3:31.57 - Budapest 81

3:31.95 - Milano 81

3:32.09 - Oslo 80

3:32.11 - Brussels 79

3:32.95 - Koblenz 83

3:33.78 - Koblenz 86

3:33.81 - Oslo 83

3:34.45 - Dusseldorf 77

one of his 10 best times were set in communist countries

1500m - Steve Scott (USA) top 10 times:-

3:31.76 - 1985 Nice

3:31.96 - Koblenz 81

3:32.33 - Lausanne 82

3:32.71 - Zurich 83

3:33.33 - Zuich 80

3:33.46 - Zurich 84

3:33.71 - Koln 86

3:34.17 - Stockholm 81

3:34.18 - Zurich 82

3:34.58 - Oslo 85

none of his 10 best times were set in communist countries

In concluding, the majority of western athletes running in the late 70's and 80's ran the big majority of their fastest times behind the Iron Curtain

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

Lord Lucan wrote:

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

Probably very very few during the 80s. 0 and 0?

How many East German athletes have been caught for doping? -> 1.

How many East German athletes have been doping? -> all of them.

See for example

Furthermore, a number of athletes who underwent state-sponsored doping programmes in East Germany between the 1960s and 1980s were competitors in athletics, but the quality of the international anti-doping work was so poor that only one East German athlete ever tested positive

Thought so. Thanks for checking.

casual obsever wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

Probably very very few during the 80s. 0 and 0?

How many East German athletes have been caught for doping? -> 1.

How many East German athletes have been doping? -> all of them.

See for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Furthermore, a number of athletes who underwent state-sponsored doping programmes in East Germany between the 1960s and 1980s were competitors in athletics, but the quality of the international anti-doping work was so poor that only one East German athlete ever tested positive

So...every East German doped, no East Germans popped. Therfore : No Brits popped = Every Brit doped.

Hmmm..

And aren't you missing the point again that there was some degree of testing on the European circuit in the 80s and this is why East Europeans would rarely run on the circuit?

casual obsever wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

In any case: there is nothing special about having most of one's races on one side of the curtain. Check Coe for example.

.

Are you seriously suggesting that the fact that Coe didn't race behind the Iron Curtain proves that there is nothing suspicious about East Europeans rarely racing outside of the Iron Curtain????

casual obsever wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

Probably very very few during the 80s. 0 and 0?

How many East German athletes have been caught for doping? -> 1.

How many East German athletes have been doping? -> all of them.

See for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics

Furthermore, a number of athletes who underwent state-sponsored doping programmes in East Germany between the 1960s and 1980s were competitors in athletics, but the quality of the international anti-doping work was so poor that only one East German athlete ever tested positive

Great research casual. I honestly thought there would have been a lot more than just one GDR athlete caught for doping considering the fact that all or most were using PEDs in one form or another. And since testing was so poor, I don't think it was just GDR, USSR & the other Soviet block nations as the only ones using PEDs.