A closer look at EPO-era performances

...and the 1500. The London race was a classic with the majority being doped up racehorses. ?

https://www.runnersworld.com/performance-enhancing-drugs/update-how-tainted-was-the-womens-1500-in-london

casual obsever wrote:

"WADA Discovers World Record Factory Ethiopia Does Almost No Drug Testing, Is Shocked"

Too funny, as if they hadn't noticed that before 2016.

ALL CHEATERS wrote:

I'am still waiting for 1 (one) African out of Africa approaching WR (world record) times in mid / long distance living out of Africa in DECENT not sh!thole country where he is regularly tested on level of Rupp for ex.

While I see what you are aiming at, there are examples. Let's start with these three:

Kipketer:

- moved to Denmark in 1990

- set his WR in 1997

Khannouchi

- moved to US in 1992

- set his first WR in 1999, and his second in 2002

Lagat:

- moved to US in 1997

- ran within 0.3 s of the WR in 2001

Is Gary deleting comments again? There's about 2+ pages of comments deleted from this thread aside from m!ndweak's angry posts. It's weird - more stuff gets deleted on doping threads that Gary (aka/rekrunner) is active on. ? If he's a mod he should just be honest and tell us - so some of us won't be wasting time posting stuff that he deletes because he doesn't like it. That's not a fair debate...that's control of information.

say nay to old records wrote:

I don't think Ayana's was as bad. 100 m, 400 m, 800 m, marathon are on top of my list of the ladies' dirty records.

FloJo's 100m was a faulty wind gauge at the 1988 US trials. The 800m could be broken by Semenya. The 400m and marathon records are very dirty.

Kipketer:

- moved to Denmark in 1990

- set his WR in 1997

Khannouchi

- moved to US in 1992

- set his first WR in 1999, and his second in 2002

Lagat:

- moved to US in 1997

- ran within 0.3 s of the WR in 2001

Damn, Casual, you are so gooood....

Now I need to switch on my old brain and find a solution to that above or I need to accept that cheaters are just better.

Well, there is just a SMALL problem with above mentioned guys - they set their records in dirty EPO era so please find other examples preferably after introduction of ABP.

Recently we also find out that even american hero was actually Mr 55% so I don't buy his results as well... especially not from his HS era - just too good to be true and when that is a case than? It is true? I don't think so, but not tested positive or in case of HS at all...

I just don't believe in outliers since we started 100m or mile or 5000m races 100 years ago on Olympic games so we just came very close to our limits, and Bolt for example is just statistically impossible to happen, for "decades" we improve 0.01s and then "clean" Green improve for 0.5s, and then Bolt smashed it by 0.2s, with bunch of OOC UN-TESTED Jamaicans with all of them later failed doping tests except Bolt, and he is clean because he is 1.95m?

In 28 years WR improved by 0.10s, and then from 2005 - 2009 for 0.19s - this is statistically impossible.

Also everyone noted problem with Bolt's teeth, how that space developed in his age?

I have problem with not correctly grown teeth, so when I was a kid they pulled out 4 tooth to make more space for a new ones and that improved the situation but not completely and during the years after some repairs I had to remove 2-3 more at later age - after 30, guess what the rest didn't move for a 1mm at all, so Bolt is a kind of Great white shark, or taking protein powders of it? What internal force spaced his teeth at his age? I'am much more older then him.

More logical answer is just HGH.

So what kind of testing they had at times they set WR? None, are records valid, NOT.

Was Bolt clean - NO.

Did he tested positive - not, is it Armstrong tested positive, Marion Jones?

Africans as well Jamaicans had no OOC testing at all and they can prepare maybe 9-10 months on whatever kind of PEDs they like and then clean themselves and run incredible times even today (but situation is improving in that regards) and during '90 in so called EPO era they can take a pill literally 5 minutes before the start of the race since EPO was not detectabile at that time.

Until independent testers are not able to test them on levels like in US and EU I don't trust 1 result they produce.

WADA had testing center in SAR - and instead to increase number of test facilities in Africa they decomissioned even that one - why? Just when we started to see explosion of SAR new stars achieving some unbelievable results.

I bet due to corruption and bribes, no explanations given as far as I know and even if they gave them it is for sure not the real reason. Thera are a lot dirtiness in doping testing and they just don't want public to know that, just as in politics.

Until there is a regulations that blood sample results must be made public I don't trust in testing at all.

Lets see whats will happen with Froome.

I guess nothing at all.

Future will tell as.

ALL CHEATERS wrote:

Recently we also find out that even american hero was actually Mr 55% so I don't buy his results as well... especially not from his HS era - just too good to be true and when that is a case than? It is true? I don't think so, but not tested positive or in case of HS at all...

Was Bolt clean - NO.

Did he tested positive - not, is it Armstrong tested positive, Marion Jones?

Thera are a lot dirtiness in doping testing and they just don't want public to know that, just as in politics.

Until there is a regulations that blood sample results must be made public I don't trust in testing at all.

Lets see whats will happen with Froome.

I fully agree with you. But I don't see a lot of differences between the testing here and in, say, Jamaica. Yes, there is more here of course, but obviously there is a lot of dirtiness... and our athletes go for an DNS if they still glow by mistake, as controlled in e.g. an Nike lab, or don't open the door to the tester. Your examples of Armstrong and Jones are good points.

And in worst case scenarios, there are the beef/supplement/kissing excuses.

Froome? I suppose he'll get a pro forma ban of 3 - 6 months, conveniently placed in the middle of two TdFs.

Besides Wanjiru, I gave you all those names way back on page 10.

So, what's the new goal?

Your original criteria emphasized the power of 1988 OUT OF COMPETITION testing, not the power of the introduction of the ABP 20 years later.

The problem with testing is that they focus on stars like Ritz that are past it and not on anything (going by times), whereas breakout stars like Coleman and Kerley or some no name Ethiopian or Kenyan can make rapid gains and it is years before anyone starts to test them, then their times plateau.

I personally reckon the salbutamol incident might might be a nothingburger compared to the other things team Sky maybe up to, surely they are micro-dosing on some PED.

Do you see the irony between asking what I "know", and then in the next statement, asking me to "Imagine that"? What I KNOW is the historical performances and the slow progress made by ALL non-Africans over decades. I was asked to IMAGINE the role of OOC testing as a suitable explanation for the large performance gap. Now you ask me to IMAGINE how OOC testing can fail as an explanation, if countries and sponsors want to protect someone. If there is one take away from all of these EPO threads, is that "believing" in EPO requires a lot of IMAGINATION. Imagine that! ?

No Hope For Mankind wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

The Russian records get beat in the ABP-era, by athletes from countries with testing.

How do you know that countries with testing don't cover-up results with certain athletes, i.e., "protective status?" Sponsorship can have a big impact in the world of sports (imagine that ?). It's all about the money. We're all just on the outside looking in and reading mainstream reports like a bunch of mind-controlled sheep. None of us have any idea what's going on behind the curtain. Frankly, I think the whole world is full of corruption, e.g., Governments, financial markets, medical system, etc.

Your original criteria emphasized the power of 1988 OUT OF COMPETITION testing, not the power of the introduction of the ABP 20 years later.

]ALL CHEATERS wrote:

Find 1 - ONE African who approach those times (close or very close to WR) and that he don't LIVE in Africa and that is REGULARLY tested during whole season and live in a decent not a sh!thole country. That SIR "cheater" Mo "sh!thole" "door bell ring" went all the time in Africa so don't count that POS as well.

FYI OOC - OUT OF COMPETITION TESTING is introduced in 1988 - 1988 - 1988 and all nations must comply with that except those above SH!THOLE countries including JAMAICA, BAHAMAS etc.

All those countries should and must be bannied at all international competitions same as Russia did.

All above results and you can expand those list to first 50, 70 results are WORTHLESS

Well since English is not my native languague maybe I didn't express myself clearly, but what is the point to give me names of athletes in other countries if testing is not possible on EPO in that time?

Of course that I thought on athletes when testing on EPO was fully developed, since my opinion is that Africans still use EPO and since gloving time is not long enough they can still do it when OOC testing is not carried out or is unadequate.

All the names you gave to me are not on the list of at least 30 fastest guys except for Wanjiru but as far as I know his coach/manager was Federico Rosa - for me enough to consider him dirty.

So yes names after introduction of ABP since from that time it was very difficult for US or EU based runner to cheat on that PED, but for countries where there are no testing it is still possible and also usage of steroids as well - see names of Kenyans busted for steroids.

1988 OOC testing - I remember that because day after that decision FloJo anounced her retirement, I just wander why, unfortunatelly we now know why. She passed away way to early.

And about OOC testing in those sh!tcountries you can check above links and how that testing is effective - they are threated to be banned the same way as Russia.

How steroids are used in T&F without OOC testing we clearly saw on Ben Jonhson example he was dirty on WC 1983, OG 1984 and WC 1987. He failed after 7-8 years in Seul in 1988, and my opinion only because there was a set up by Americans.

rekrunner wrote:

If there is one take away from all of these EPO threads, is that "believing" in EPO requires a lot of IMAGINATION.

Imagine that! ?

rekrunner have you lost your mind? You honestly can't be serious? "Believing in EPO requires a lot of IMAGINATION?" You're kidding...right?

There are over 100 doping positives for rEPO & ESAs and another ~79 ABP sanctions for hematological anomalies in athletics. That's almost 180 positive cases for oxygen-vector doping!

What's mind-boggling about this is that, unless you believe in a 100% detection rate, these are "only" the positive cases - actual usage could be many times this number.

So, why on Earth would so many athletes use rEPO and/or blood dope if only "imagination" & "believing" were required? Why not just take a placebo and get the same performance benefits if "imagination" & "believing" were the only two catalysts needed? Sure would have saved a lot of bans, sanctions & ruined careers. ?

rekrunner wrote:

I would care more about improvements from baselines if I was confident that there was an accurate way to measure the baseline, and then the improvement. Otherwise it is biased cherry-picking. "O2-vector doping with high-responders" also raises the question, how you determined that it was a high response to O2-vector doping. The "dirty" North Africans don't explain why Spain, fully loaded with rocket fuel, ran so poorly, compared to other non-African countries, and to the 1980s reference. And finally, even anecdotal evidence is limited in value.

Of course anecdotal evidence is limited in value. However, in the case with 02-vector doping there are no studies with elites, and you've dismissed & undermined the limited studies with non-elite runners anyway. For example, the RBC infusion study on 10k race times below only involves "highly-trained" non-elite runners, which falls short of your expectations:

The effects of red blood cell infusion on 10-km race time. JAMA 257: 2761–2765.

So, absent studies with elites, I think anecdotal evidence can be quite compelling. For example, Boulami was glowing IC with EPO when set the steeplechase WR - a time that has never been beaten in 16 yrs!

Of course you'll simply conclude that it's all a coincidence, much like Ramzi's insane off-scores when he won double-gold in Helsinki, as well as his Beijing gold when he was glowing IC with CERA.

And I don't think Spain was running so poorly - go back and look at their medal count from Olympic/WC/EC competition during the EPO-era. And Estévez's, Rey's, Dominguez's & "Starvin Marvin's" PBs aren't exactly pack fodder either. ?

rekrunner wrote:

I would care more about improvements from baselines if I was confident that there was an accurate way to measure the baseline, and then the improvement.

Hematocrit was measured with the Gewiss–Ballan cycling team in 94-95 with Ferrari running the show (Hematocrit variations 1994 to 1995). Rumor had it that "Mr. 60%" was a "high-responder." ?

Blood boosting is a very silly idea. The concept appeals to general lack of knowledge of basic physiology prevalent in...well exercise physiologists.

Because you can't exceed homeostasis, so it won't do what you think.

And look at the power outputs of your local hero cyclists. Similar to the top pros of the 90s.

But hey everyone carry on talking pseudoscience as usual.

pariah wrote:

Blood boosting is a very silly idea. The concept appeals to general lack of knowledge of basic physiology prevalent in...well exercise physiologists.

Because you can't exceed homeostasis, so it won't do what you think.

And look at the power outputs of your local hero cyclists. Similar to the top pros of the 90s.

But hey everyone carry on talking pseudoscience as usual.

Hey, Jon! Nothing new there. Maybe you should try a bit harder?

Too reductionist. Reductionist... I love that word. Reductionist, reductionist. Mmmm.

pariah wrote:

Because you can't exceed homeostasis .

Prove it.

Of course you can exceed it.

Some of those athletes with mutant level hematocrit levels can live at the top of Mt. Everest. But Renato and rekrunner would say all those are genetic anomalies not products of EPO.

An absence of data doesn't make anecdotes more compelling.

Rocket Fuel Rick wrote:

So, absent studies with elites, I think anecdotal evidence can be quite compelling.

rek stop deleting my comments, and for real getting my comments and threads deleted that have nothing to do with you or your wife is incredibly petty

Once again, this has nothing to do with me.

m!ndweak wrote:

rek stop deleting my comments, and for real getting my comments and threads deleted that have nothing to do with you or your wife is incredibly petty