Hey, Dumb, it seems you got it! Wow, after just 65 years of closely following athletics you are now able to write times and years correctly. Some fast learner you are. Did you understand the meaning of the " ' " sign?
Next step, try logic on child level.
You want to challenge someones claim that no one has done as good as runner A over some given distances in some given time period?
Not helpful: changing the time period, changing the distances, adding the achievements of several others, listing the bads of A
Instead: name B who has done better in your opinion than A over the given distances and the given time period.
You understand? No? If you try hard, you maybe will in 20 years.
Thank you for proving again you haven't a clue what was being discussed.
Hey, Dumb, it seems you got it! Wow, after just 65 years of closely following athletics you are now able to write times and years correctly. Some fast learner you are. Did you understand the meaning of the " ' " sign?
Next step, try logic on child level.
You want to challenge someones claim that no one has done as good as runner A over some given distances in some given time period?
Not helpful: changing the time period, changing the distances, adding the achievements of several others, listing the bads of A
Instead: name B who has done better in your opinion than A over the given distances and the given time period.
You understand? No? If you try hard, you maybe will in 20 years.
Thank you for proving again you haven't a clue what was being discussed.
Hey, Dumb, it seems you got it! Wow, after just 65 years of closely following athletics you are now able to write times and years correctly. Some fast learner you are. Did you understand the meaning of the " ' " sign?
Next step, try logic on child level.
You want to challenge someones claim that no one has done as good as runner A over some given distances in some given time period?
Not helpful: changing the time period, changing the distances, adding the achievements of several others, listing the bads of A
Instead: name B who has done better in your opinion than A over the given distances and the given time period.
You understand? No? If you try hard, you maybe will in 20 years.
Thank you for proving again you haven't a clue what was being discussed.
Dumb, friend - you just made it. So happy for you. It might be your first real improvement in 6+ decades.
Now start working on handling the real big numbers. The ones above 5. Small hint: 2nd hand...
What's your point with all this? I brought up the story Snell told for the same reason I mentioned the Air Force experiments with it, to show that blood doping was known and used before the late 60s. Is this gossip and not credible? I don't know. If Snell, who raced against Odlozil tells me Odlozil blood doped and you tell me Odlozil did not I'm probably not absolutely sure of anything but I'd take Peter's comment as more credible than yours because, you know, he knew Odlozil at least a bit.
None of your points, including your reference to the Airforce, indicate blood doping was being used in sports and particularly running in the early sixties. As I said, it was not speculated to be present in running until Viren's era.
You have also changed what you said earlier about Snell. You previously said you were told by someone else that Snell made the claim you said he did about Odlozil. That is of course hearsay. Snell did not say it to you so you have no idea whether what you were told was true, either about Snell or Odlozil.
Yes, I know that Snell said it to a friend and this particular friend is very, very, reliable. Snell may have been wrong but if this friend told me Peter said that to him Peter said that to him. And for what I hope is the last time, blood doping may not have been speculated to be present in running genarally until Viren's era, MIKKO ALI LEPPILAMMPI AND JOHU KUHA, BOTH FINNISH STEEPLECHASERS, BLOOD DOPED IN 1968. (I put this in capitals this time because you seem to ignore that it happened and maybe it's a visual issue.) Both freely acknowledged that they'd done it. Kuha subsequently broke the world steeplechase record. A major "reason" people who believe Viren blood doped was that he and Leppilammpi had the same doctor and it was that doctor who blood doped Leppilammpi.
Blood doping was around a lot sooner than was generally known. The US Air Force was trying it with pilots hoping to reduce incidences of blacking out during high altitude maneuvers in 1947 or '48. Peter Snell told a mutual friend that Josef Odlozil had blood doped prior to the '64 Olympics and a couple Finnish steeplechasers did it in 1968, but that was after the mid 60s. It was probably Kuha doing it prior to setting the steeplechase record in 1968 that began bringing blood doping to the mainstream of the sport.
You can't substantiate the hearsay quote about Snell and Odlozil. But whatever was done by the US airforce blood doping was unknown in the sport until speculation about it in the early seventies. It wasn't in the mainstream in the late 60's; it was only known to have been occurring in skiing at that time.
None of that indicates Clarke could have been doping.
It's amusing watching you try to hold HRE to a standard that you have never met. Your standard is usually "it exists" and "we can't know anything because doping is clandestine".
EPO was first discovered in 1906 by two French scientists studying anemic rabbits, and blood doping was being studied by scientists as long ago as 1947. It existed.
I appreciate Amby Burfoot's courage in speaking out about a sensitive and controversial issue in the world of athletics. If his claim about Chepngetich is true, it's deeply disappointing, as doping undermines the integrity of the sport. I commend Burfoot for prioritizing honesty and fairness, even when it means challenging big names.
Thank you for proving again you haven't a clue what was being discussed.
Dumb, friend - you just made it. So happy for you. It might be your first real improvement in 6+ decades.
Now start working on handling the real big numbers. The ones above 5. Small hint: 2nd hand...
Good luck.
This is a thread about Amby Burfoot's observations concerning Chepngetich but the only thing that interests you is what you think I do with numbers. You are like a baby looking for a rattle.
None of your points, including your reference to the Airforce, indicate blood doping was being used in sports and particularly running in the early sixties. As I said, it was not speculated to be present in running until Viren's era.
You have also changed what you said earlier about Snell. You previously said you were told by someone else that Snell made the claim you said he did about Odlozil. That is of course hearsay. Snell did not say it to you so you have no idea whether what you were told was true, either about Snell or Odlozil.
Yes, I know that Snell said it to a friend and this particular friend is very, very, reliable. Snell may have been wrong but if this friend told me Peter said that to him Peter said that to him. And for what I hope is the last time, blood doping may not have been speculated to be present in running genarally until Viren's era, MIKKO ALI LEPPILAMMPI AND JOHU KUHA, BOTH FINNISH STEEPLECHASERS, BLOOD DOPED IN 1968. (I put this in capitals this time because you seem to ignore that it happened and maybe it's a visual issue.) Both freely acknowledged that they'd done it. Kuha subsequently broke the world steeplechase record. A major "reason" people who believe Viren blood doped was that he and Leppilammpi had the same doctor and it was that doctor who blood doped Leppilammpi.
Your friend may be reliable but not as a source for what Snell said, because it remains hearsay, which is why second-hand information is treated with scepticism in a courtroom - if it is even admitted. As you should know, stories change in the telling. Perhaps you could indicate where Snell said anything publicly about Odlozil, or about blood doping in general? You might also add what is the factual basis for establishing blood doping was being used in track by 1964.
Do you also have anything that confirms the Finnish steeplechasers admitted to blood doping in '68?
This post was edited 33 seconds after it was posted.
You can't substantiate the hearsay quote about Snell and Odlozil. But whatever was done by the US airforce blood doping was unknown in the sport until speculation about it in the early seventies. It wasn't in the mainstream in the late 60's; it was only known to have been occurring in skiing at that time.
None of that indicates Clarke could have been doping.
It's amusing watching you try to hold HRE to a standard that you have never met. Your standard is usually "it exists" and "we can't know anything because doping is clandestine".
EPO was first discovered in 1906 by two French scientists studying anemic rabbits, and blood doping was being studied by scientists as long ago as 1947. It existed.
EPO was not created as a drug until the late '80s and used by athletes till the '90's. So what you say was discovered by French scientists is as usual completely irrelevant.
The second point about blood doping is equally irrelevant as blood doping didn't feature in distance running until at least the early seventies. You are either too stupid to follow a discussion or endlessly absorbed in seeking deflections.
Yes, I know that Snell said it to a friend and this particular friend is very, very, reliable. Snell may have been wrong but if this friend told me Peter said that to him Peter said that to him. And for what I hope is the last time, blood doping may not have been speculated to be present in running genarally until Viren's era, MIKKO ALI LEPPILAMMPI AND JOHU KUHA, BOTH FINNISH STEEPLECHASERS, BLOOD DOPED IN 1968. (I put this in capitals this time because you seem to ignore that it happened and maybe it's a visual issue.) Both freely acknowledged that they'd done it. Kuha subsequently broke the world steeplechase record. A major "reason" people who believe Viren blood doped was that he and Leppilammpi had the same doctor and it was that doctor who blood doped Leppilammpi.
Your friend may be reliable but not as a source for what Snell said, because it remains hearsay, which is why second-hand information is treated with scepticism in a courtroom - if it is even admitted. As you should know, stories change in the telling. Perhaps you could indicate where Snell said anything publicly about Odlozil, or about blood doping in general? You might also add what is the factual basis for establishing blood doping was being used in track by 1964.
Do you also have anything that confirms the Finnish steeplechasers admitted to blood doping in '68?
God, you're tiresome. We've done this and done this. It was a private conversation that Snell had with a mutual friend. As far as I know Peter never said anything publicly about blood doping but that's only as far as I know. Yes, stories sometimes change over time and sometimes they don't. And yes, there have been reports confirming that Ali Leppilammpi and Kuha blood doped in 1968. I've seen them but I haven't filed them away anywhere and I am not going searching for it again because a) you'd probably not believe it and b) I don't care whether you believe me or not.
Your friend may be reliable but not as a source for what Snell said, because it remains hearsay, which is why second-hand information is treated with scepticism in a courtroom - if it is even admitted. As you should know, stories change in the telling. Perhaps you could indicate where Snell said anything publicly about Odlozil, or about blood doping in general? You might also add what is the factual basis for establishing blood doping was being used in track by 1964.
Do you also have anything that confirms the Finnish steeplechasers admitted to blood doping in '68?
God, you're tiresome. We've done this and done this. It was a private conversation that Snell had with a mutual friend. As far as I know Peter never said anything publicly about blood doping but that's only as far as I know. Yes, stories sometimes change over time and sometimes they don't. And yes, there have been reports confirming that Ali Leppilammpi and Kuha blood doped in 1968. I've seen them but I haven't filed them away anywhere and I am not going searching for it again because a) you'd probably not believe it and b) I don't care whether you believe me or not.
You don't like being questioned; you seem to prefer your statements being taken as factually truthful at face-value. You have been making claims of a controversial factual nature but all you have to support them is what you say a friend told you about what your friend claims Snell said to them - comments he never made publicly, or to you - and that you've seen "reports" about what the Finnish steeplechasers may or may not have admitted to.
If what your friend says about what Snell alleged is correct - that Odlozil blood-doped - it would be helpful to see any independent expert observation confirming athletes were blood doping by the Tokyo Olympics in '64. If it was occurring then then it would have been rife through the rest of the sixties, including the Mexico City Olympics in '68. I haven't seen anything that suggests that.
The Finnish steeplechasers may have blood doped in '68 but it is surprising this information doesn't turn up in discussion of the practice in the sport and in particular whether Viren was blood doping in the '70s.
"Ruth Chepngetich’s epic 2:09:56 world record in the Chicago Marathon on Sunday was unequivocally the greatest marathon performance of all time.
And that makes me queasy. In fact, I’m outraged.
I’m going to try to explain as briefly as possible why I am so troubled by this performance. And I admit that I could be wrong. After all, I have no evidence that Chepngetich cheated, as she has never failed a doping test.
EPO was not created as a drug until the late '80s and used by athletes till the '90's. So what you say was discovered by French scientists is as usual completely irrelevant.
The second point about blood doping is equally irrelevant as blood doping didn't feature in distance running until at least the early seventies. You are either too stupid to follow a discussion or endlessly absorbed in seeking deflections.
You're beginning to sound like a genuine doping denier.
Who knows when athletes started blood doping when athletes don't talk? I think you forget that doping is clandestine. We know a little something about some of the Finns, because some of them talked, but how do we know they were among the first, rather than among the first to talk about it?
Long before synthetic EPO in the late '80s, scientists extracted EPO from human urine in 1977. And again, since 1906, scientists knew that EPO production could be triggered by inducing anemia (e.g. simply withdrawing blood triggers an EPO response). But again, it's not just EPO. We know that blood doping experiments date back to 1947. And we know that athletes are always ahead of the scientists.
How can you know so little about the history of doping in sport?
I don't care if people believe me or not. I repeated something a very reliable friend told me from a pretty credible source, one who is way more credible than you. But it contradicted something you said and that set you off as happens here a lot on various threads.
Leppilammppi has been quoted in several places admitting he blood doped. He doesn't always give a date in every source and I'm not going to spend an eternity trying to find one where he does. Same goes for Kuha.
And while I don't care if I'm questioned I get sick being asked the same questions over and over by someone who really doesn't know as much as he thinks he does and simply decides any answers that contradict what he believes must be incorrect answers and who will stop at nothing to get the last word. It's very tiresome. You believe blood doping wasn't happening before the 70s? Fine. Believe it. Other people looking at this thread might find it interesting that there's a longer history of it.
EPO was not created as a drug until the late '80s and used by athletes till the '90's. So what you say was discovered by French scientists is as usual completely irrelevant.
The second point about blood doping is equally irrelevant as blood doping didn't feature in distance running until at least the early seventies. You are either too stupid to follow a discussion or endlessly absorbed in seeking deflections.
You're beginning to sound like a genuine doping denier.
Who knows when athletes started blood doping when athletes don't talk? I think you forget that doping is clandestine. We know a little something about some of the Finns, because some of them talked, but how do we know they were among the first, rather than among the first to talk about it?
Long before synthetic EPO in the late '80s, scientists extracted EPO from human urine in 1977. And again, since 1906, scientists knew that EPO production could be triggered by inducing anemia (e.g. simply withdrawing blood triggers an EPO response). But again, it's not just EPO. We know that blood doping experiments date back to 1947. And we know that athletes are always ahead of the scientists.
How can you know so little about the history of doping in sport?
I don't know how long you've been around the sport. Blood doping was not always discussed as clandestinely as other kinds of "artificial" help because unlike most of those other kinds of help it was perfectly legal for many years. There was a stigma about it for many people and I know there were athletes who did it and kept it quiet even though there were no consequences for doing it because of that stigma. But not everyone held that view and a few talked about it more openly. Leppilammpi was very open about his experiences with it and was well paid for being that way.
I don't know how long you've been around the sport. Blood doping was not always discussed as clandestinely as other kinds of "artificial" help because unlike most of those other kinds of help it was perfectly legal for many years. There was a stigma about it for many people and I know there were athletes who did it and kept it quiet even though there were no consequences for doing it because of that stigma. But not everyone held that view and a few talked about it more openly. Leppilammpi was very open about his experiences with it and was well paid for being that way.
Maybe not as clandestinely, but doesn't that stigma mean there were others who weren't talking about it? Take Viren for example. Did he blood dope? There have been hundreds of threads on that, and we may never really know. You say Snell heard and said something, but said nothing publicly. And who knows what the USSR was doing.
I don't know how long you've been around the sport. Blood doping was not always discussed as clandestinely as other kinds of "artificial" help because unlike most of those other kinds of help it was perfectly legal for many years. There was a stigma about it for many people and I know there were athletes who did it and kept it quiet even though there were no consequences for doing it because of that stigma. But not everyone held that view and a few talked about it more openly. Leppilammpi was very open about his experiences with it and was well paid for being that way.
Maybe not as clandestinely, but doesn't that stigma mean there were others who weren't talking about it? Take Viren for example. Did he blood dope? There have been hundreds of threads on that, and we may never really know. You say Snell heard and said something, but said nothing publicly. And who knows what the USSR was doing.