So why do they dope like it's their national pastime?
It has been described repeatedly in various articles, if you ever bothered to actually pay attention to the topic you mindlessly rant about every day. Actually rant doesn't qualify, since you use the same handful of words every time. Kenya's doping is financially motivated. They are not trying to make national or international teams. The vast majority are desperately trying to feed themselves and their families, or enable a better life. Kenya didn't place enough emphasis on doping testing until recently because they knew the cheating was aimed primarily at the local races:
"The root of Kenya’s problem is unique in the global athletics ecosystem, according to the man whose job it is to fix it. It’s very different to the state-sponsored scheme that led to Russia being thrown out of international track."
"The vast majority of the hundreds of distance runners pouring out of Kenya’s high-altitude training grounds are not running for gold medals at the world championships and the Olympics or for national pride. They are competing for pay checks first, running to get away from poverty.
Because of that, Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running; the marathons and the 5K and 10K races around the world — the grinding edge of distance running away from the major track meets but which is the most lucrative part of athletics and where there’s good money on offer almost every week to attract Kenya’s bountiful talent.
"This money that we’re talking about ... is life-changing,” Clothier said. “Not just for them, but for their families, their whole communities. In essence, it really is all about the money.”
You have just provided a long-winded version of my point that they need to dope to succeed (earn a living) and that corruption is their norm (because that is how they succeed/make money).
You might as well say, "which Russian athletes?" But you're only interested in denying the extent of Kenyan doping, which is virtually as bad as Russian doping.
This post was edited 53 seconds after it was posted.
You might as well say, "which Russian athletes?" But you're only interested in denying the extent of Kenyan doping, which is virtually as bad as Russian doping.
No.
I'm just pointing on your wrong statement:
"It shows that Kenyan athletes believe that they can't succeed without doping or that cheating is simply a way of life."
You might as well say, "which Russian athletes?" But you're only interested in denying the extent of Kenyan doping, which is virtually as bad as Russian doping.
No.
I'm just pointing on your wrong statement:
"It shows that Kenyan athletes believe that they can't succeed without doping or that cheating is simply a way of life."
"It shows that Kenyan athletes believe that they can't succeed without doping or that cheating is simply a way of life."
You have no credible alternative explanation.
Explanation for what? That there are many Kenyan positives?
The most easy explanation for this: many Kenyans dope. I'm pretty sure the ones who dope do it because they expect some sort of advantage for themself.
Explanation for what? That there are many Kenyan positives?
The most easy explanation for this: many Kenyans dope. I'm pretty sure the ones who dope do it because they expect some sort of advantage for themself.
Of course they expect an advantage but they are amongst the worst dopers in the sport. That shows they either don't believe they can succeed without it and/or corruption is a a norm. You have no credible alternative explanation for why it is so widespread in Kenya.
Explanation for what? That there are many Kenyan positives?
The most easy explanation for this: many Kenyans dope. I'm pretty sure the ones who dope do it because they expect some sort of advantage for themself.
Of course they expect an advantage but they are amongst the worst dopers in the sport. That shows they either don't believe they can succeed without it and/or corruption is a a norm. You have no credible alternative explanation for why it is so widespread in Kenya.
It is the best explanation that some unknown fraction of Kenyans "believe" they need external help to succeed. This makes them easily exploited by local doctors and pharmacists, looking to make easy money by taking a percentage of any winnings.
I found Awsi Dooger's link most interesting. The AIU's Brett Clothier tells us that "Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running." Indeed, if you look more closely at various WADA reports, Kenya's doping problem dates back to around 2012-2013, when the number of busts started increasing signficantly.
Of course they expect an advantage but they are amongst the worst dopers in the sport. That shows they either don't believe they can succeed without it and/or corruption is a a norm. You have no credible alternative explanation for why it is so widespread in Kenya.
It is the best explanation that some unknown fraction of Kenyans "believe" they need external help to succeed. This makes them easily exploited by local doctors and pharmacists, looking to make easy money by taking a percentage of any winnings.
I found Awsi Dooger's link most interesting. The AIU's Brett Clothier tells us that "Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running." Indeed, if you look more closely at various WADA reports, Kenya's doping problem dates back to around 2012-2013, when the number of busts started increasing signficantly.
Your fanciful excuse for Kenyans doping could apply anywhere. All athletes who dope "believe" it will help them succeed (you leave out - "and they believe that with good reason, because it does help") and they are merely the innocent dupes of conniving and unprincipled doctors and pharmacists. But Kenyan athletes dope more than just about anyone else now so they are either more simple-minded and credulous than most other countries' athletes or their doctors are more corrupt. I haven't seen either advanced as a credible theory.
The more likely explanation is that in a culture in which corruption is widespread there are many who will break the rules to succeed, and they do that because the rewards outweigh the risks. Your old friend, Occam's Razor, would agree.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
It is the best explanation that some unknown fraction of Kenyans "believe" they need external help to succeed. This makes them easily exploited by local doctors and pharmacists, looking to make easy money by taking a percentage of any winnings.
I found Awsi Dooger's link most interesting. The AIU's Brett Clothier tells us that "Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running." Indeed, if you look more closely at various WADA reports, Kenya's doping problem dates back to around 2012-2013, when the number of busts started increasing signficantly.
Your fanciful excuse for Kenyans doping could apply anywhere. All athletes who dope "believe" it will help them succeed (you leave out - "and they believe that with good reason, because it does help") and they are merely the innocent dupes of conniving and unprincipled doctors and pharmacists. But Kenyan athletes dope more than just about anyone else now so they are either more simple-minded and credulous than most other countries' athletes or their doctors are more corrupt. I haven't seen either advanced as a credible theory.
The more likely explanation is that in a culture in which corruption is widespread there are many who will break the rules to succeed, and they do that because the rewards outweigh the risks. Your old friend, Occam's Razor, would agree.
You have been posting for hours on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. What a sad, lonely old man you must be.
Your fanciful excuse for Kenyans doping could apply anywhere. All athletes who dope "believe" it will help them succeed (you leave out - "and they believe that with good reason, because it does help") and they are merely the innocent dupes of conniving and unprincipled doctors and pharmacists. But Kenyan athletes dope more than just about anyone else now so they are either more simple-minded and credulous than most other countries' athletes or their doctors are more corrupt. I haven't seen either advanced as a credible theory.
The more likely explanation is that in a culture in which corruption is widespread there are many who will break the rules to succeed, and they do that because the rewards outweigh the risks. Your old friend, Occam's Razor, would agree.
You have been posting for hours on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. What a sad, lonely old man you must be.
Your fanciful excuse for Kenyans doping could apply anywhere. All athletes who dope "believe" it will help them succeed (you leave out - "and they believe that with good reason, because it does help") and they are merely the innocent dupes of conniving and unprincipled doctors and pharmacists. But Kenyan athletes dope more than just about anyone else now so they are either more simple-minded and credulous than most other countries' athletes or their doctors are more corrupt. I haven't seen either advanced as a credible theory.
The more likely explanation is that in a culture in which corruption is widespread there are many who will break the rules to succeed, and they do that because the rewards outweigh the risks. Your old friend, Occam's Razor, would agree.
It is not my fanciful excuse, but yours -- I was agreeing with you that you provided the best explanation with words like "expect an advantage" and "don't believe they can succeed without it". I also agree with you that all athletes who dope, "believe" it will help, and purposefully left out baseless reasons and conclusions.
The part about local doctors and pharmacists doesn't come from me, but from official reports, and from investigative journalist reports, and other popular reporting. They also point the finger at exploitation from foreign agents.
I point out again the AIU's statement: "Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running."
Occam's Razor would say something that works for Kenyans should work for everyone.
Your fanciful excuse for Kenyans doping could apply anywhere. All athletes who dope "believe" it will help them succeed (you leave out - "and they believe that with good reason, because it does help") and they are merely the innocent dupes of conniving and unprincipled doctors and pharmacists. But Kenyan athletes dope more than just about anyone else now so they are either more simple-minded and credulous than most other countries' athletes or their doctors are more corrupt. I haven't seen either advanced as a credible theory.
The more likely explanation is that in a culture in which corruption is widespread there are many who will break the rules to succeed, and they do that because the rewards outweigh the risks. Your old friend, Occam's Razor, would agree.
It is not my fanciful excuse, but yours -- I was agreeing with you that you provided the best explanation with words like "expect an advantage" and "don't believe they can succeed without it". I also agree with you that all athletes who dope, "believe" it will help, and purposefully left out baseless reasons and conclusions.
The part about local doctors and pharmacists doesn't come from me, but from official reports, and from investigative journalist reports, and other popular reporting. They also point the finger at exploitation from foreign agents.
I point out again the AIU's statement: "Kenya’s doping problem didn’t start on the track, Clothier said, but in road running."
Occam's Razor would say something that works for Kenyans should work for everyone.
It does work for everyone but others don't dope in such numbers as Kenyans do. But you are still sticking to your mantra that they only "believe" it will help them - like a belief in spirits and other such superstitions. You have a very condescending view of Kenyan athletes. You should be surprised they know which way to run on a track.
It does work for everyone but others don't dope in such numbers as Kenyans do. But you are still sticking to your mantra that they only "believe" it will help them - like a belief in spirits and other such superstitions. You have a very condescending view of Kenyan athletes. You should be surprised they know which way to run on a track.
You say it works for everyone, but after looking at the fastest performances for the last several decades, I have doubts that it has made the fastest non-Africans any faster in the last few decades, when the fastest East Africans have become 2-3% faster, before the era of supershoes, with the exception of steroids for women in events requiring muscular strength. It's almost like the non-Africans are just not as smart, or maybe not as rich, as the hundreds and thousands of East Africans, to be able to find and afford the same doping regime, while evading the testers, as the poorest rural farmer in Kenya.
WADA tells us that India and China and Russia dope in similar numbers as Kenyans. If we include all WADA sports, Kenya is not even in the top-10. Since there are so many Kenyan athletes competing at a high level, it would be better to have a reliable estimate of the doping prevalence as a percentage of the population of athletes.
What I believe about Kenyan athletes is mostly what is written in WADA Taskforce reports, and from prominent spokesmen from the AIU focused on Kenyan anti-doping, among other reputable sources.
I'm not sure "condescending" is the most accurate term, but what I think does not extend to all Kenyan athletes, but just the ones who dope on-purpose, and then this is not limited to Kenyan athletes, but all athletes who dope, as well as all the lay-fans and tabloid bloggers and pseudo-intellectual pundits who believe and argue things while lacking sufficient relevant facts, evidence, and observations.
Explanation for what? That there are many Kenyan positives?
The most easy explanation for this: many Kenyans dope. I'm pretty sure the ones who dope do it because they expect some sort of advantage for themself.
Of course there is another explanation: Many Kenyans do not dope well enough to fool the level of testing they are subjected to. Does anyone really believe that doping in Kenya is worse than in the US or Ethiopia or Uganda.
Lots of Kenyan's get caught cheating. Lots get caught. Occam's other razor says that there are many more that cheat that don't get caught.
The fact is that there are a lot of Kenyans competing and succeeding and being tested. Even a small fraction of Kenyans doping at the equivalent rate of the world average prevelance will produce a large number Kenyans testing positive, and a large number not caught.
My question is not how many are caught -- which is concerning in and of itself -- but how much doping actually correlates to performance enhancement for high performing athletes, if at all, especially after training for a lengthy period at altitude, when EPO and blood values are legally and naturally stimulated by the environment.
Lots of Kenyan's get caught cheating. Lots get caught. Occam's other razor says that there are many more that cheat that don't get caught.
Occam’s Razor should not be used to make more assumptions. The simplest explanation is in Kenya more tier B/C/D athletes clumsily cheat and are subject to tests (and bans) than anywhere else. Most of the Tier A busts resemble the worldwide (though worse in East/North Africa) trend of ABP/EPO/Nandrolone busts which are generally more sophisticated bans and results of out of competition testing. There are some trendy drugs Tri-Acetonide where the Occam’s Razor points to a black market operation (see doping bust by Kenyan authorities, phony doctors/prescriptions all for a drug banned only in competition).
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