Altitude training is as "proven" as doping with EPO, and I'm repeating the advice of a successful coach of elite and world record setting athletes.
Altitude is not proven to be superior to peds. This is shown in the significant numbers of such athletes who use them. Kipruto et al.
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
So yet another world class Kenyan has been busted for EPO, and the last 10 pages of this thread have been Rekrunner baiting others to resume his never-ending discussion on whether the Earth is flat.
The first 10 pages before Rekrunner joined, we were discussing Kipruto's likely guilt, examined his character and what other runners had said about him, asking whether this had ended the 'Saint Colm' image, discussing Kipruto's shady Serbian manager and his links to Prague, debating the ABP irregularity method of catching cheats etc, and then suddenly it's all become Rekrunnered.
If Rekrunner had courage and integrity, he would have spent the last 20 years arguing against the absurd belief that East Africans are vastly different genetically to the rest of the human race, instead of arguing that PEDS have neither positive nor harmful effects.
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
Very true. Too bad you can't be consistent and admit the same for Epo.
Both are proven to enhance performance. Combine altitude with Epo, and: BAMMM. Ask Kipruto. Or Kiptum. Or Jeptoo. Or Kiprop. Or Sang. Or O'Connell. Or Rosa. Or Aden. Or Schumacher. I could go on...
So yet another world class Kenyan has been busted for EPO, and the last 10 pages of this thread have been Rekrunner baiting others to resume his never-ending discussion on whether the Earth is flat.
The first 10 pages before Rekrunner joined, we were discussing Kipruto's likely guilt, examined his character and what other runners had said about him, asking whether this had ended the 'Saint Colm' image, discussing Kipruto's shady Serbian manager and his links to Prague, debating the ABP irregularity method of catching cheats etc, and then suddenly it's all become Rekrunnered.
Also true. Rekrunner won again: now the thread is about his tragicomic Epo theory, not the Kenyan cheater and his coach. Hats off to Rek!
Altitude is not proven to be superior to peds. This is shown in the significant numbers of such athletes who use them. Kipruto et al.
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
No one disputes that altitude-training is effective, you moron. Any kind of training is effective. That isn't the issue. Doping is. Your only purpose in referring to altitude-training is to bolster your view that it is more effective than peds. That is clearly not the view of altitude-trained athletes who also dope. They would know more than you, who have no experience of either doping or being an elite altitude-trained athlete.
This post was edited 25 seconds after it was posted.
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
No one disputes that altitude-training is effective, you moron. Any kind of training is effective. That isn't the issue. Doping is. Your only purpose in referring to altitude-training is to bolster your view that it is more effective than peds. That is clearly not the view of altitude-trained athletes who also dope. They would know more than you, who have no experience of either doping or being an elite altitude-trained athlete.
Canova has decades of experience with elite athletes living and training at altitude. And yet, when he tells you why EPO doesn't work on well-trained elite athletes living and training at altitude, you don't believe him. And he surely knows more than you about the subject.
You are the definition of a narcissist. It's easy to prove that rekrunner is not a narcissist. He doesn't insult and belittle people. You do. You enjoy humiliating others. It camouflages your insecurities making you feel superior. You are the real narcissist here.
You are the definition of a narcissist. It's easy to prove that rekrunner is not a narcissist. He doesn't insult and belittle people. You do. You enjoy humiliating others. It camouflages your insecurities making you feel superior. You are the real narcissist here.
I can't be a narcissist. Nothing you say makes me feel insecure. But I could certainly understand if you feel inferior.
No one disputes that altitude-training is effective, you moron. Any kind of training is effective. That isn't the issue. Doping is. Your only purpose in referring to altitude-training is to bolster your view that it is more effective than peds. That is clearly not the view of altitude-trained athletes who also dope. They would know more than you, who have no experience of either doping or being an elite altitude-trained athlete.
Canova has decades of experience with elite athletes living and training at altitude. And yet, when he tells you why EPO doesn't work on well-trained elite athletes living and training at altitude, you don't believe him. And he surely knows more than you about the subject.
How surprising, to find that a coach in Kenya denies that doping aids elite Kenyan athletes - who nonetheless continue to dope in their droves.
You are wrong. Again. What you should have said is that DENIAL of doping effectiveness is not based on science. It doesn't have the data. Of course you form the exact opposite conclusion of what the research actually shows.
Au contraire self-deluded one. The research shows "lack of evidence for efficacy". It's in the title, and in the paper.
In science, the denial of cause and effect is the default starting point, when there is no data. And the assumption of cause and effect without data is called speculation, and hypothesis. I sometimes call it faith, myth, and religion.
Scientists actually have to do their homework to decide if there is a pattern, if there is a correlation, how weak or strong the correlation is, ensure it is not a spurious correlation, or if the correlation is actually causation.
Heuberger wrote a paper that shows that decades of doping/performance science has scored poorly in that regard, for elite performances in the real world.
The paper could be just as easily entitled, "lack of evidence that doping ISN'T effective". It simply lacks comprehensive evidence either way, full stop. However the evidence for doping effectiveness is widespread outside this very limited study and is suggested most strongly by the countless athletes who have doped over generations - none of whom participated in this insignificant piece of research, that added very little to the sum of knowledge on the topic. Mind you, it has exponentially added to yours, which wasn't hard to do.
In view of how this thread has been rekrunnered this is worth quoting again, from a long time veteran runner on this site. It seems particularly apt.
"In all my years of posting on LetsRun "rekrunner" has got to take the cake as one of the most uninformed people I've ever seen. Like, how can you be so ignorant?"(quote)
If Rekrunner had courage and integrity, he would have spent the last 20 years arguing against the absurd belief that East Africans are vastly different genetically to the rest of the human race, instead of arguing that PEDS have neither positive nor harmful effects.
I agree with you about East African genetics. Distance running performance comes from low bodyweight (simple physics), combined with the environment of altitude (natural EPO micro-dosing). Raise a Ryan Hall in the highlands to be 110 pounds and he will also be a world beater.
With respect to PEDs, I think they can be harmful.
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
Very true. Too bad you can't be consistent and admit the same for Epo.
Both are proven to enhance performance. Combine altitude with Epo, and: BAMMM. Ask Kipruto. Or Kiptum. Or Jeptoo. Or Kiprop. Or Sang. Or O'Connell. Or Rosa. Or Aden. Or Schumacher. I could go on...
I think I am quite consistent with the results of short term studies on well trained amateurs.
I'm unaware of any data on combined altitude with EPO.
I don't need to ask anyone, as Canova has already answered.
The denial is part of the problem.WADA takes a lot of precautions before they release the news. The motive is clear his career had been derailed for a long time by injuries and he fell into temptation looking for a quick fix to get back up there where he was before. Of course it's also true that there are cases of blackmail and sabotage happening currently over there. But it is up to him to show why he isn't culpable. Personally, I think it's a done deal. You just need to see the behavior pattern and you will see the similarities with these doppers just before they are caught. Another 3 coming up shortly.
Apologies if I'm misreading, but you think he was clean when he ran all his great times and only doped when his performance fell off? Any reason for this belief?
"superior" is your word. I said "as proven". See 1997 Stray-Gundersen for example, where they reported 3% gains, and recorded up to 6% improvements for some groups during the course of the study.
A significant number of athletes train at altitude. I guess this "proves" that altitude works, as so many athletes wouldn't do it if it didn't.
No one disputes that altitude-training is effective, you moron. Any kind of training is effective. That isn't the issue. Doping is. Your only purpose in referring to altitude-training is to bolster your view that it is more effective than peds. That is clearly not the view of altitude-trained athletes who also dope. They would know more than you, who have no experience of either doping or being an elite altitude-trained athlete.
"jacksprat" suggested maybe these elite altitude athletes should ask me for my advice. There is no need since I've already made it public for all.
I advise altitude training because it also "works" and is more "legal" than banned PEDs. The risk/reward ratio favors the option with no risk.
Doping on purpose is bad and stupid. No one should do it. If you want to stimulate EPO and RBC, go to high altitude.