2:19 on 70-80 miles per week.

With negative or even splits on the day you ran 51:22 I think you could have run 51:00/51:05. You ran even splits today. 51:15 is a good run. Had you run a few track races in the recent weeks prior to the old 10mile pr?

Haha I meant left turns. I probably should switch directions every once and a while, but I always hated running the opposite way.

Periodization wrote:

With negative or even splits on the day you ran 51:22 I think you could have run 51:00/51:05. You ran even splits today. 51:15 is a good run. Had you run a few track races in the recent weeks prior to the old 10mile pr?

I ran it during the fall of my super senior year in college. I only had indoor track eligibility left so I wanted something to focus on during the XC season. The previous outdoor season I ran 30:47 and 14:42 on the track, then ran 100+ mile weeks all summer to build up for it as my goal race. That indoor season I ran 4:12, 8:24, and 14:35.

Congrats good race, fast closing pace! Thanks for sharing your workouts.

Thank you for the detailed response. Very interesting. Many congrats on your effort. That’s a great closing mile. Very strong.

I’m pretty persuaded by coach JS’s training methods (and am experimenting with the rest back to 120 in my training) but the lack of hills is something I can’t buy into. There is such a huge amount of runners who use them to gain strength and speed and good form that I can’t see why he doesn’t include them in quite a tight looking system. I’m aware it’s because of the aggravation of the Achilles but I feel it’s over cautious.

I reckon some of his 400s could be done on the hills instead of the track or even something like half the reps on hills and half the reps on the track for example.

Or just hill reps after a session or the day before after an easy run.

Thanks! The last mile is downhill for the record, but I was still very pleased with it. I’ve never been a very strong hill runner so I certainly haven’t gotten any worse at hills while working with J.S. I’ve definitely been able to recover quickly and speed back up once I’m up and over the hills. I live on top of a mile long hill that I run up to finish every single morning run so I do get a little bit of time on hills each week.

My coaching has shown hills are not necessary to do in training to run your optimal times. What`s most important is to

get the body used to the right paces at flat surface. And even my XC runners very seldom runs hill reps and still I have coached many good XC results e.g the Kenyan top 3 junior runner, winner of Discovery XC as a senior twice!

I have proven hills are not necessary in training. :)

JS - Question for you...

Is it okay if someone still does a VO2Max workout in the same week of a race? Let's say it's not a peak race, but just a race they are training through. Can they do the prescribed VO2Max work (20x400)? Let's say 4 or 5 days out of the race.

Great thread by the way. Keep it up "below average".

Thanks.

Bobsamuel wrote:

JS - Question for you...

Is it okay if someone still does a VO2Max workout in the same week of a race? Let's say it's not a peak race, but just a race they are training through. Can they do the prescribed VO2Max work (20x400)? Let's say 4 or 5 days out of the race.

Great thread by the way. Keep it up "below average".

Thanks.

Yes…..this was what Phil just did ….a maxVO2 20 X 400 on Tuesday ….. a LT -interval on Thursday …...and a race on Sunday …….normal training and still a race . Same with my SA 2 k XC champ today and a great maxVO2 20 X 400 at 65 -62 sec and last 3 at 59 -58-58 ! …..and a 5 k race waiting on Saturday with no tapering . The DANCAN system is so very flexibel you can just design it to your needs week after week with same basic, but up to the runners individual needs daily and weekly , the perfect Art of coaching. Phil today ran a LT interval just 2 days after his PR 10 mile , and it was 12 x 1000m at average 3:08 min . I was not sure he could do it more than a couple of them , but he felt almost as usual and just played it safe and stopped after 12 …..I set it to be max 15 of them .

- Looks like magic ! _

Thanks JS.

A few questions I didn't see brought up in this thread...

Why not do a more periodization approach with VO2MAX workouts vs threshold? I see you have both VO2MAX workouts + threshold workouts happening season long. NCurious on why you don't follow a phased approach?

Why not do more Daniels like VO2MAX style workouts? 8x600 @ 5K w/4 min rest, 3xmile @ 5K w/4 min rest, etc. If I had to guess, I would assume the 20x400 @5K down to 120 HR provides the same physiological benefit as the longer Daniel's workouts having more rest. Can you explain?

Lastly, for a runner focusing on 5K and not Marathon, do you touch on faster intervals at all? Mile/3K pace style rep work similar to Daniels?

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

My coaching has shown hills are not necessary to do in training to run your optimal times. What`s most important is to

get the body used to the right paces at flat surface. And even my XC runners very seldom runs hill reps and still I have coached many good XC results e.g the Kenyan top 3 junior runner, winner of Discovery XC as a senior twice!

I have proven hills are not necessary in training. :)

You coached the two times winner of the senior Discovery XC! Who was this?

Josphat Kipchirchir,Kenya.

I asked the periodization question earlier on in the thread and the response was poor but no surprise there. The "JS method" (it's not a method) is just copy a few sessions of a few coaches without understanding the "why they do it" or "when it's important not to do it". JS is a very good marketeer. His approach is not founded on using training principles such as periodization and will eventually run into problems like demotivation, plateauing, boredom and inconsistency. You can't keep repeating the same thing and expect a new stimulus every time. This is usually clear to good coaches but a lot of inexperienced coaches (and poor coaches withe experience) will not understand why the intervals stop working even though the times are getting faster!! Bear in mind that JS needs to get results because his pay depends on it. He needs quick results and cannot afford to structure a base phase (which hurts his athletes in the long term). It reminds me of a high school or collegiate coach who does not have the patience for greatness and wants instant success. I think it works for a limited amount of time because most people have never spent time working on higher volume threshold type reps. The 20x400m with HR back down to 120 is a VO2 (PACE) session but not really a VO2 (MAX) session. There is a big physiological difference here. The 400 reps are too short to be able to spend much time at your VO2 (MAX) but you benefit from economy at VO2 (MAX) pace. I hope you can see the limitations in this approach but I doubt JS will.

11 miles total today 20x400 on the bike path. Body and spirt is feeling good.

69.9, 43.3

70.1, 44.0

69.4, 45.1

69.2, 49.0

68.8, 55.3

69.1, 54.4

69.9, 55.3

68.7, 58.2

69.0, 60.3

69.1, 59.3

69.5, 62.5

69.2, 64.1

69.9, 67.1

69.3, 62.8

69.7, 59.1

69.6, 59.1

70.1, 62.7

69.3, 59.6

68.5, 64.3

67.0, 60.7

Running 15-20 miles a day and not improving is much more demotivating than running 12-20x400 each week. I’m move motivated under J.S.’s plan than I have been at any point in my running.

Congrats to one more very good workout Phil! :) Here we clearly see what has happen to the individual rest time back to 120 bpm. Now you have a much faster recovery and even the last rep fast at 67 sec gave only need for 60 sec rest back to 120 bpm. This is one of the most important parts of my system and Art of coaching....what I call "The Rubber band principle" . And this is entirely my own invention.

- Magic Old Man River-

Well.....I see that you haven`t been follow all my writings about periodization and maxVO2 workouts. I have told before that my DANCAN system is a linear low mileage system without any traditional periodization as in the well known phase systems in history. But....and here comes a very important point!.....there is what I use to call an "inbuilt periodization" and millions of options to laborate with . The system is very flexibel even if the basic approach is the same week after week and so on.....

The system gives much more sessions with a new stimulus every time compared to any of the known phase systems.

And the rest back to 120 bpm gives the very best needed rest after EVERY rep.

And more.....one of the best things for motivation is that the runner will see fast positive results in training and racing without any plateauing and just moving further to reach optimal performance.

The 20 x 400m is what we use to call a maxVO2 interval and parts of it will come very close to maxO2, but.....and here comes another very important point, ...The 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is NOT mainly with purpose to raise maxO2. To do that is a question of the total mix of the three most important factors for running results. And as you know the runner can only reach a predetermin level by genetics. Instead the main purpose with the 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is to teach the body to be more energy economical at that 5 k race pace. This way to see it I have also got confirmed by the well known physiologist Leif -Inge Tjelta, known from being tester of Ingebrigtsen brothers.

- The Wizard -

Bobsamuel wrote:

Thanks JS.

A few questions I didn't see brought up in this thread...

Why not do a more periodization approach with VO2MAX workouts vs threshold? I see you have both VO2MAX workouts + threshold workouts happening season long. NCurious on why you don't follow a phased approach?

Why not do more Daniels like VO2MAX style workouts? 8x600 @ 5K w/4 min rest, 3xmile @ 5K w/4 min rest, etc. If I had to guess, I would assume the 20x400 @5K down to 120 HR provides the same physiological benefit as the longer Daniel's workouts having more rest. Can you explain?

Lastly, for a runner focusing on 5K and not Marathon, do you touch on faster intervals at all? Mile/3K pace style rep work similar to Daniels?

Hi Bobsamuel! :) Well.......firstly the rest the runner needs should not be predetermind by 1,2.3.4 min and so on. Much better to let the individual body decide "automatically" what`s the very best rest after every rep.....

The human body likes repetitional work......therefore the best way is to repeat maxVO2 and threshold work every week . That way the body gets the right portion of maxVO2 work and LT work.....and together with the best aerobic power pace(LSD) develops the runner until optimal performance will be reached.It`s about the very well known "training Bible" , enough loading + enough recovery= super compensation ! ( Sometimes my runners will do 20 x 300m, 13-15 x 600m , 8-10 x 800m and so on .....but mostly it will be 12-20 x 400m when running maxVO2 sessions .....that way I as the coach have perfect control week after week) .

When the runner goes for 5000m and less I also put in faster repetitions at 400- 3000m pace in the specific preparation.

Periodization wrote:

I hope you can see the limitations in this approach but I doubt JS will.

You don't know what you're talking about. This is the new coach GOAT!

I read all your posts previously but still think you don't understand what periodization is and why it is the most important element of a progressive multi-annual training plan. "Inbuilt periodization" is just a made up term....running 300's/400's or 600's at 5k economy pace is the same stimulus and does not represent an "inbuilt periodization" or anything periodization related. Your "system" has 2 sessions per week (1 is 6-10 miles of threshold (a copy of canova training) and the other is 3-5 miles at VO2 (PACE) or you could say a 5k economy session (One part of Jack Daniels training). You also have a standard semi-long run sometimes with 20-30 mins of quicker running. This is not rocket science. You call your system DANCAN after Jack Daniels and Renato Canova and still say it's entirely your invention. It's not an invention, it's not art, it's just copy and paste until something stalls and then you won't have answers....