A closer look at EPO-era performances

I didn't start with these assumptions, but you ended with them. I didn't ask why Africans ran so well, but why non-Africans ran so poorly, in an era when "the first ever potent endurance PED became available". After all Spain tried -- I assumed we should be able to see that. You think it's because all non-African nations in "5 continents" were not corrupt enough to produce at least 5 high quality success stories over 28 years? Including countries like Russia, China, and Spain? Let's look again at non-Africans in the men's 10000m. In 1990, the average of the top-5 was 27:14.77, obviously the result of uncontrolled steroids in the 1980s, as we just learned. But no matter, because EPO is the first potent endurance drug, not steroids, according to "sane, rational, and unblinkered people". 27:14.77 is the average of a Mexican, two Portuguese, one Italian, with one Ethiopian the worst of the top-5. The record was 27:08.23, by Arturo Barrios in 1989, with top-5 Addis Abebe running 27:17.82. By 2000, with no EPO test yet available, only Antonio Pinto (27:12.47) and Fabian Roncero (27:14.44) ran faster than that. A decade later, with easy to beat EPO tests, by 2010, there was no change. Let's take a second to reflect. "5 continents" is a really large population. And two decades is a really long time. And EPO is a "potent endurance PED". And the tests were easy to beat, pre-ABP. And we have only 2 candidates, who could not break the 1989 World Record. Then, post-ABP, when EPO cheating was the hardest, Solinsky (26:59.60), Cam Levins (27:07.51), and Rupp (26:44.36) take "5 continents" to next level. Was Rupp taking EPO? I thought he was taking thyroid medicine and testosterone. That's a grand total of 5 non-Africans able to run faster in 28 years, with 3 of them post-ABP. The best Spaniard, in 1998, was the worst of the bunch, placing 5th out of 5 non-Africans. How do "sane, rational, and unblinkered people" map these observations to all of the EPO milestones that helped and hindered performance? The 5000m is similar, with no Spaniards in the group of 8 non-Africans. The marathon is similar with one Spaniard, in a group of 12, who did not break the 1988 world record. Forget Africa for a moment. All this talk about "the first ever potent endurance PED" would be way more compelling, if Spain, one of the best examples of EPO abuse, performed well within the group of "5 continents", and athletes from "5 continents" performed well compared to the 1980s predecessors.

Coevett wrote:

I don't think even you know what you're talking about now or what your argument here is. Everything is indeed complex if you start with an absurd assumption that you are apparently unable to even consider to be false (because to do so would be 'racist') - that Third World Africans with endemic corruption and little or no testing and massive financial incentives to cheat in order to escape poverty are no more likely to take a 'universal drug' than others.

Do you even deny that Moroccans are more likely to cheat? Despite the raft of failed tests and ridiculous career progressions etc.?

To most sane, rational, and unblinkered people, the fact that African performances rocketed and dominated distance running exactly at the same time that the first ever potent endurance PED became available does have a blindingly obvious explanation.

So no "High-responders, structured programs, State-sponsored systematic doping, covered drug postitives, poor OOC testing in some countries, bribes & mega-corruption" in 5 continents for 28 years? I find that incredible. Did you know that there no Russian men or Chinese men, in distance running faster than the 5th best in 1990 in any of the events I looked at? Not the average of the top-5, but the 5th best. These were two state sponsors with systematic doping, covered drug positives, poor OOC testing, and Russia with bribes and mega corruption.

Doped to the Max wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

For example, I never said "EPO simply leveled the playing field", but asked, if it could have, why didn't it?

EPO & PED use never levels the playing field - it unlevels it rather profoundly: High-responders, structured programs, State-sponsored systematic doping, covered drug postitives, poor OOC testing in some countries, bribes & mega-corruption.

For example, look at the damage the Russian women did with medaling in WC /Olympic events & major competitions. Fortunately, they got caught and were stripped of most of the medals & titles. And check out the damage the Russian men race walkers did with EPO & blood doping - insane! There's your "level" playing field - it got "unleveled" very quickly. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

Maybe you can tell us which countries did not have OOC urine tests for steroids and OOC urine tests for EPO? OOC blood tests only became relevant post-2009.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

So Rekrunner's hypothesis is that countries with OOC testing performed worse than countries without OOC testing during the EPO era. Yep, solid proof epo doesn't work.

Did Kenya and Ethiopia have OOC in 2009? Or Jamaica?

The truth is athletes from countries that did OOC testing in the 1990s were more likely to be worried about potentially being caught on epo at some than athletes with absolutely no OOC testing at all. It's the difference between being on epo for short windows of time, or the full Monty.

m!ndweak wrote:

Gary Pariah Rekrunner, will you just stop all of this and come pound out my tight brown eye already!!

Sounds like Karl.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

Gary Pariah Rekrunner, will you just stop all of this and come pound out my tight brown eye already!!

Sounds like Karl.

Leave Karl alone.

Steroid OOC testing was introduced in 1988, and EPO OOC testing was introduced in 2002. I didn't find a 2009 report, but I did find a 2008 and a 2007 "IAAF Out-of-Competition Anti-Doping Programme List of Tested Athletes" which includes many Kenyan, Ethiopian and Jamaican athletes. So which are these countries with absolutely no OOC testing at all?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Maybe you can tell us which countries did not have OOC urine tests for steroids and OOC urine tests for EPO? OOC blood tests only became relevant post-2009.

Did Kenya and Ethiopia have OOC in 2009? Or Jamaica?

The truth is athletes from countries that did OOC testing in the 1990s were more likely to be worried about potentially being caught on epo at some than athletes with absolutely no OOC testing at all. It's the difference between being on epo for short windows of time, or the full Monty.

rekrunner wrote:

Steroid OOC testing was introduced in 1988, and EPO OOC testing was introduced in 2002.

I didn't find a 2009 report, but I did find a 2008 and a 2007 "IAAF Out-of-Competition Anti-Doping Programme

List of Tested Athletes" which includes many Kenyan, Ethiopian and Jamaican athletes.

So which are these countries with absolutely no OOC testing at all?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Did Kenya and Ethiopia have OOC in 2009? Or Jamaica?

The truth is athletes from countries that did OOC testing in the 1990s were more likely to be worried about potentially being caught on epo at some than athletes with absolutely no OOC testing at all. It's the difference between being on epo for short windows of time, or the full Monty.

after pounding me out gary, you might want to test for STDs!! unlike PEDs, STDs are very real!!!!

rekrunner wrote:

Did you know that there no Russian men or Chinese men, in distance running faster than the 5th best in 1990 in any of the events I looked at? Not the average of the top-5, but the 5th best. These were two state sponsors with systematic doping, covered drug positives, poor OOC testing, and Russia with bribes and mega corruption.

Unfair comparison because the Russian men have gravitated to race walking instead of distance running under the idea that they would have a better chance of world domination as opposed to having to compete against the Kenyans, Ethiopians, etc. and not getting very far. Same with the Chinese men to a certain extent - more interest in a better chance of domination on the world scene. In fact, Chinese men hold 7 spots in the top 25 all-time fastest 20k & 5 spots in the top 25 50k.

And don't forgot the Russian men race walkers were using EPO & blood doping at a feverish pace led by their infamous coach Viktor Chegin, who just received a lifetime ban. World records, European records, medals at major competitions, etc. - all under Chegin's doping program (see rekrunner - here's another endurance sport benefiting from EPO/blood doping). So, the Russian men race walkers were doping & the Russian women distance runners were doping...what a combo...who would have thought. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

Steroid OOC testing was introduced in 1988, and EPO OOC testing was introduced in 2002.

I didn't find a 2009 report, but I did find a 2008 and a 2007 "IAAF Out-of-Competition Anti-Doping Programme

List of Tested Athletes" which includes many Kenyan, Ethiopian and Jamaican athletes.

So which are these countries with absolutely no OOC testing at all?

It was introduced in 1988 (I thought it was 1989) but it wasn't enforced evenly across countries in 1988. EPO needs to be tested from blood, but half of the world doesn't have an accredited blood testing lab nearby.

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

After all Spain tried --

[quote]

EPO was introduced and then the Spanish started running faster at all distances from the 800m to the marathon (except for the frequently contested 2000m and 20000m track distances). The Spanish won global championship medals ranging from the 1500m to the marathonn distance and won a team medal at the world cross country champs during a period of African dominance.

So Spain tried using EPO (and other drugs I suspect) and they started running faster at pretty much all of the distance races. Spain is hardly a case for EPO "not working" and yet you continually compare the results of a country with a population of 40 million with a tiny talent pool of distance running with that of the rest of the world population of 6 billion plus to show that EPO does not work. And this is even though the world marks also improved at all distances from 800m to the marathon after the introduction of EPO.

I guess reality is not always fair. Whatever the reason, it looks like Russia and China, did not believe drugs, combined with "systematic doping, covered drug positives, poor OOC testing, and bribes and mega corruption", would be effective for the men in the 1500m, 3000m, 3000m steeple, 5000m, 10000m and marathon, at winning European records, medals at major competitions, etc. It looks like this lack of faith in the powerful effect of EPO, synergistically combined with steroids in high-responders, impacted all non-African nations at the same time, all of them probably too discouraged by OOC steroid testing to dare taking the first available undetectable potent endurance drug. Well, excluding Spain of course, they believed in EPO enough to use it, and succeeded in setting national records. But just like your idea that "the Russian men have gravitated to race walking instead of distance running under the idea that they would have a better chance of world domination as opposed to having to compete against the Kenyans, Ethiopians, etc.", this is just pure wild speculation on my part. It's curious when I talk about distance running, how often the subject is changed to race-walking, because it is an "endurance sport". 24-hours Le Mans is also an endurance sport. I note here that the record for the 20km race-walk is held by Japanese Yusuke Suzuki, and for the 50km race-walk, is held by the French Yohann Diniz. That's how well Russia did in the rather profoundly unlevel playing field they created by using drugs.

As I mentioned upthread, Russian men were pursuing racewalking instead of distance running. This concept lay in the foundation that they would have a better chance of world domination as opposed to having to compete against the Africans. Same with the Chinese men. Many of the Russian racewalkers have backgrounds in distance running and could have just as well gone the distance running route. Nonetheless, there was 02-vector doping within Russian racewalking machine leading to numerous bans, sanctions, stripping of medals, etc.

EPO is the first ever "potent endurance PED," but not the first ever potent endurance method. That would be blood doping, and as you well know synonymous with EPO in the effectiveness of raising Hct and consequently VO2max, i.e., "oxygen-vector doping." Same objective - different method. And there was blood doping going on pre-EPO era and a resurgence of blood doping mid-00s when EPO testing got more refined...nothing new there:

What are defining as abuse? Same as use? Or do you separate the two terms in spectrum of doping? Spain was O2-vector doping as reflected by Operation's Galgo & Puerto, and Garcia's EPO positive & Bezabeh caught with blood bag, (i.e., one using a PED and the other using blood doping) but was it use or abuse? Is there any difference?

You still are not answering the question -- which countries did not have OOC testing? Who are talking about when you say:

Kenya, Ethiopia, and Jamaica were all OOC tested. Was Zimbabwe scared?

Your "truth" raises another question -- OOC testing in the 1990s would have only been for steroids. Why would OOC testing for steroids cause anyone to be worried about being caught for EPO? It was well known that no test existed for EPO until 2000, and there was no OOC testing until 2002.

This idea that "(steroid testing) wasn't enforced evenly across countries in 1988" -- is this another "truth"? Do you have any details about which countries were enforcing it, and which countries were lax?

I considered Spain, not as an example of "EPO not working", but the best example of "EPO working", outside of Africa. Is there a better example than Spain, outside of Africa, to see the effects of the power of EPO? Is it unfair to compare them to, say Carlos Lopes and Fernando Mamede of Portugal, or Arturo Barrios of Mexico? That's a population of 3. The population of Portugal is 10 million. According to many EPO threads, Spain and Morocco are the two main countries known to abuse EPO. 40 million people is not enough for Spain to demonstrate the power of a potent endurance drug? I didn't just compare Spain to the rest of the world, as world marks also improved -- I also compared them to the non-moving pre-EPO marks of the 1980s. Is that the extent of the power of EPO? -- the best demonstration of its power is its ability to bring Spain up to the 1980s standards?

Yeah you mentioned it above. We can type what we want in these boxes. Is that some kind of desperate rationalization that you pulled from your imagination, or is there some public evidence of the motivations of Russian and Chinese distance men? If we want to argue imagination against imagination, the Russian and Chinese already knew, from trials, what everyone here is afraid to admit, and this was the main motivation to not even try. Or they didn't know, and they tried it anyway, and failed.

So are you saying that EPO is not better than blood-transfusions of the '80s?

I don't make a difference between "use" and "abuse". Chose the best word to strengthen your argument.

rekrunner wrote:

It's curious when I talk about distance running, how often the subject is changed to race-walking, because it is an "endurance sport". 24-hours Le Mans is also an endurance sport.

I note here that the record for the 20km race-walk is held by Japanese Yusuke Suzuki, and for the 50km race-walk, is held by the French Yohann Diniz. That's how well Russia did in the rather profoundly unlevel playing field they created by using drugs.

Damn...your reputation as a big-time troll preceeds you! Now I get it when "casual observer" says all you do is troll. Lol.

If you bothered to do any research first you would have realized that Sergey Morozov held the 20km WR for 7 freaking years (2008-15) before it was broken by Suzuki. And he still holds the 2nd fastest time 9 secs behind the new WR. Btw, Morozov 1xEPO positive/1xABP sanction = lifetime ban. Russian Kanaykin holds the 4th fastest all-time and was also busted for EPO. Both coached by Viktor Chegin.

On the 50km, WC Nizhegorodov held the WR for 6 freaking years (2008-14) before it was broken by Diniz. Nizhegorodov is still 2nd fastest all-time and he, like his comrades, was also implicated in doping. Coached by Viktor Chegin.

Think it through Gary. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

Not sure what your point is. Only 3 people in the EPO-era ran faster than the top-5 average from the '80s.

Actually 4 ran faster from the EPO-era.

Your top-5 average from the 80s = 1:42.25.

Post-90s: Rudisha/Kipketer/Amos & Khamis @ 1:42.23.

rekrunner wrote:

I considered Spain, not as an example of "EPO not working", but the best example of "EPO working", outside of Africa.

No...I don't - they just didn't run those fast times you're looking for. Who cares about the improvement made from baseline and titles/medals won - nothing to see there. They probably should have corroborated with their neighbors to the South to get those doses right. ? Operation Galgo was a doping failure.

rekrunner wrote:

Is there a better example than Spain, outside of Africa, to see the effects of the power of EPO?

Yeah...though in still Africa, Spain's neighbors to the South will show you the effects of rocket fuel & full-throttle doping. Once again Gary:

Mourhit - 12:49/26:52/7:26 (EPO)

Boulami - Fastest ever steeple! 7:53.17 ? (EPO)

Goumri - 12:50.25 (ABP sanction/hematological).

Ramzi - 3:29.24 (CERA)

Laâlou - 3:29.53 (EPO)

In addition, Mourhit went from 13:46 to 13:05 in one year! (96/97), and 13:06 to his European record & *25th* all-time fastest of 12:49.71 in two years! (98/00). Upon returning back to competition after serving a 2 yr ban, Mourhit never ran anything close to sub-13 ever again. Ramzi & Boulami also rapid improvements in a short period of time and never the same post-ban. Ramzi & Boulami glowing during IC testing.

You can go ahead and rationalize this all you want (imagine that). However, this is strong anecdotal evidence of the power of O2-vector doping with high-responders in a country that has had about as strong as a doping culture as you'll find anywhere else in the world.

EPO and PEDS DONT WORK!!!!!

STOP THE WITCH HUNT, THE SPANISH, MOROCCANS, KENYANS, AND ETHIOPIANS ARE INNOCENT!!!

the russians on the other hand should be banned, not because EPO and PEDs work, but because they are whites and they dont believe in white privilege, white shame, or white inferiority in athletics.....for this BLASPHEMOUS attitude their country should be banned for LIFE!!!!