OMG...Jakob 3:46.46 in the mile!!

rekrunner wrote:

Coevett wrote:

You really have lost the plot. Why is it 'thick' to believe a man suspended for breaking doping rules ran one of the fastest times in history doped - a time he can't get within 10 seconds of now he's returned from suspension after effectively missing one season and still only 28?

You can't get over your value judgement assumption that everybody dopes equally everywhere, no matter the wildly diverging financial situations, standards of anti-doping testing, everyday corruption etc.

Maybe because he was not busted for doping? Maybe you can answer, which male hormones you think would bring 10 seconds in the 1500m, and why no one is running 10 seconds faster than Coe and Cram and Ovett?

This is not my value judgement, but your weird imagination driven by your no-value judgements.

Meanwhile, I honestly don't think everybody dopes equally everywhere. Some figures I've seen suggests that some countries like Russia and Turkey and Morocco dope way more, and East African doping was about the worldwide average.

I wonder if you stop training for 2 years, how fast would you run?

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

"Women will be high responders to supplemental male hormones, for events that require muscular strength, while men are naturally responding to naturally produced male hormones. For distance running, any effect will be marginal, if at all, or if not negative."(quote)

Manangoi - who once ran 3.28 while doped but currently can't beat 3.38 - says you are talking out of your a*se again - as usual.

You have the unintellectual habit of projecting your faults on others.

Speaking of talking out your a*se, do you really believe Manangoi once ran 3:28 while doped? How thick are you? As you are responding to my comment about supplemental male hormones, which male hormones do you think Manangoi took, that would bring 10 seconds in the 1500m?

Or maybe there is an unpublished study which says that a repeated failure to update your calendar is a form of doping far more powerful than steroids, while the triple offense is just worth half the ban.

If supplemental male hormones can bring 10 seconds, then the times of Coe and Cram and Ovett and Willis must surely be unnatural, or else many others would be running 3:19 by now.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

"Women will be high responders to supplemental male hormones, for events that require muscular strength, while men are naturally responding to naturally produced male hormones. For distance running, any effect will be marginal, if at all, or if not negative."(quote)

Manangoi - who once ran 3.28 while doped but currently can't beat 3.38 - says you are talking out of your a*se again - as usual.

rekrunner wrote:

You have the unintellectual habit of projecting your faults on others.

Speaking of talking out your a*se, do you really believe Manangoi once ran 3:28 while doped? How thick are you? As you are responding to my comment about supplemental male hormones, which male hormones do you think Manangoi took, that would bring 10 seconds in the 1500m?

Or maybe there is an unpublished study which says that a repeated failure to update your calendar is a form of doping far more powerful than steroids, while the triple offense is just worth half the ban.

If supplemental male hormones can bring 10 seconds, then the times of Coe and Cram and Ovett and Willis must surely be unnatural, or else many others would be running 3:19 by now.

So you try to narrow the goal posts to claim that an athlete will only dope using male hormones. You have no idea what Manangoi could have been using but his offence says he was likely doping - he had no justifiable excuse (like another doper, Houlihan, had no justifiable excuse). There are drugs used that aren't male hormones - try scanning the WADA banned list sometime. But what is conspicuous is that since his ban he can get nowhere near his prior performances. A person with a grain of intelligence would perceive the likely reason, but unfortunately that appears to exclude you.

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

So you try to narrow the goal posts to claim that an athlete will only dope using male hormones. You have no idea what Manangoi could have been using but his offence says he was likely doping - he had no justifiable excuse (like another doper, Houlihan, had no justifiable excuse). There are drugs used that aren't male hormones - try scanning the WADA banned list sometime. But what is conspicuous is that since his ban he can get nowhere near his prior performances. A person with a grain of intelligence would perceive the likely reason, but unfortunately that appears to exclude you.

What goes on in that spaghetti brain of yours? As can be seen above, "male hormones" was the goalpost before you brought in Managoi, because we were talking about your inability to tell men and women apart.

Now, I think you don't know what "likely" means, having used it twice incorrectly. Your beliefs based on myths are a poor measure of likelihood.

Interesting that you see yourself as a person with a grain of intelligence. Someone with far more intelligence than one grain clearly sees all of the flaws in what is primitively perceived by those whose intelligence is measured by the grain and whose conclusions are formed solely based on myths.

Also interesting you avoid continuing your own argument by not answering which male hormones can bring 10 seconds to the 1500m, nor why any athletes are not now running 3:19s after nearly 4 decades since Cram and Coe ran their sub-3:30s.

Coevett wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Also interesting you avoid continuing your own argument by not answering which male hormones can bring 10 seconds to the 1500m, nor why any athletes are not now running 3:19s after nearly 4 decades since Cram and Coe ran their sub-3:30s.

Speaking for myself, the reason why nobody is running 3:19 after nearly 4 decades since the Brits ran 3:29, despite peds making 10 second improvements in the 1500m is :

People with the talent of Coe and Cram are not taking full throttle peds. Of course, this is something that your brain can't grasp.

The talent pool that produced Coe and Cram, and Ryan and Elliott and Snell and Ovett shrunk massively due to 'the African invasion' and the consequent near death of track in the West as a mainstream sport. The African invasion, itself of course, largely the result of the availability of EPO from the late 80's. As far as we can tell, going by doping busts, doping is chiefly a problem in East Africa and certain other regions.

The Nigerian 1500m national record is 3:48. That's 22 seconds slower than the Kenyan national record, despite Nigeria having twice the population. If you gave the 'elite' Nigerians all the peds in the world (assuming they are not already on peds) they would improve 10 seconds, and still not be world class. But lets say that peds would enable them to get to 3:28, an improvement of 20 seconds or more. Your logic would be that Nigerians can't be getting 20 second improvement from peds, otherwise there would be people running 20 seconds faster than Coe and Cram (3:09).

I can't remember where you stand on 'mechanical doping'. Do you also doubt that super shoes and tracks give any advantages? It seems the common belief that modern shoes and tracks give at least 2 seconds advantage over El G's day. But according to you this has to be false, otherwise people would be running 3:24.

BTW, you claim that El G, Lagat, and Ngeny running 3:26 all around the same time (the height of the EPO era) is 'annecdotal' and far from a statistically relevent sample. Yet you point to Cram and Coe's times as evidence that peds do not work as nobody is running 10 seconds faster than them.

Coevett wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Also interesting you avoid continuing your own argument by not answering which male hormones can bring 10 seconds to the 1500m, nor why any athletes are not now running 3:19s after nearly 4 decades since Cram and Coe ran their sub-3:30s.

Speaking for myself, the reason why nobody is running 3:19 after nearly 4 decades since the Brits ran 3:29, despite peds making 10 second improvements in the 1500m is :

People with the talent of Coe and Cram are not taking full throttle peds. Of course, this is something that your brain can't grasp.

The talent pool that produced Coe and Cram, and Ryan and Elliott and Snell and Ovett shrunk massively due to 'the African invasion' and the consequent near death of track in the West as a mainstream sport. The African invasion, itself of course, largely the result of the availability of EPO from the late 80's. As far as we can tell, going by doping busts, doping is chiefly a problem in East Africa and certain other regions.

The Nigerian 1500m national record is 3:48. That's 22 seconds slower than the Kenyan national record, despite Nigeria having twice the population. If you gave the 'elite' Nigerians all the peds in the world (assuming they are not already on peds) they would improve 10 seconds, and still not be world class. But lets say that peds would enable them to get to 3:28, an improvement of 20 seconds or more. Your logic would be that Nigerians can't be getting 20 second improvement from peds, otherwise there would be people running 20 seconds faster than Coe and Cram (3:09).

I can't remember where you stand on 'mechanical doping'. Do you also doubt that super shoes and tracks give any advantages? It seems the common belief that modern shoes and tracks give at least 2 seconds advantage over El G's day. But according to you this has to be false, otherwise people would be running 3:24.

BTW, you claim that El G, Lagat, and Ngeny running 3:26 all around the same time (the height of the EPO era) is 'annecdotal' and far from a statistically relevent sample. Yet you point to Cram and Coe's times as evidence that peds do not work as nobody is running 10 seconds faster than them.

Armstronglivs wrote:

"Male hormones" is the goal that you restricted your speculation to; I was discussing doping. The Russian female 800m runner had doped with a selection of drugs. Only one of them included a "male hormone" - testosterone - which - wait for it - is also a banned drug for men. Could it also be performance enhancing for men? Men can clearly benefit from the same drugs women use, as WADA recognises.

I am not interested in your equally stupid supposition that Manangoi used a "male hormone" only. There is a range of peds he could have been using - including the Kenyan favorite of EPO. But a cocktail of peds is typical of dopers. What we do know is that since his violation and return to competition he is a good 10secs slower than when we can infer he was likely doping. That is the same degree of difference that doping gave to the female Russian 800m runner. What a coincidence!

I so wish there was a drug that could address your problem, but, alas ...

rekrunner wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

"Male hormones" is the goal that you restricted your speculation to; I was discussing doping. The Russian female 800m runner had doped with a selection of drugs. Only one of them included a "male hormone" - testosterone - which - wait for it - is also a banned drug for men. Could it also be performance enhancing for men? Men can clearly benefit from the same drugs women use, as WADA recognises.

I am not interested in your equally stupid supposition that Manangoi used a "male hormone" only. There is a range of peds he could have been using - including the Kenyan favorite of EPO. But a cocktail of peds is typical of dopers. What we do know is that since his violation and return to competition he is a good 10secs slower than when we can infer he was likely doping. That is the same degree of difference that doping gave to the female Russian 800m runner. What a coincidence!

I so wish there was a drug that could address your problem, but, alas ...

Your short term memory is so bad, you cannot remember what you were discussing yesterday. We were discussing why the physiology/biology/hormones of men and women are completely different -- because men produce large amounts of male hormones naturally, as much as 20-30x what women produce. This was the lead-in to Manangoi.

Somehow you think Manangoi's failure to update a website, or be at home, caused a reduction of his natural production of male hormones.

My supposition is that we cannot infer that Manangoi doped at all with any likelihood, and that no cocktail of doping is worth 10 secs at that level, or else we would have seen many many runners around the world much much faster than Coe/Cram/Ovett/Webb/Wheating/Willis/Ingebrigtsen/....