Swimming in designated club training times is a major restriction on swimming.
Not the same for athletes.
Thus rules applied the same; just different effect.
I get the impression you are trying as hard as possible to not understand. I know for a fact she wasn't allowed to train with her club or be coached by her coach at all neither during squad times nor outside of them so no it's not the same application of the rules. Why are you being so dense?
Because he is a troll formerly called liar soorer who posts under different handles but spouts the same interminable drivel as he always does. And, yes - he is dense.
So It’s simple. The arguments presented never held up. So we are left with emotion / humanity and a different standard applied to friends and acquaintances by many in running media.
Leadership involves difficult choices. They seem to have chosen the banned athlete and it reflects on the group.
you forget you are talking about human beings in these situations until it hits close to home and you are forced to think about it.
Sad situation all around. hopefully everybody can find peace. Even those who are responsible for creating it.
Bingo. In everything in 2022, people are forgetting about humanity, that the "other side" of an argument is made up of real people.
High hopes wrote:
The best coaches in sports across the world put the team first and Jerry is now burying the team so that he can maintain the presence of a doper around the group.
Yes, you are right. Most coaches wouldn't do what Jerry is doing. Think about this for a moment. Why would he do that? It makes zero sense for him to keep her around. If he knows she's dirty and the group is dirty, you just keep paying her and tell her to shut the F up.
You've forgotten the humanity of the situation.
The humanity of the situation....
Only exist when the doper is white and likable.
There is no humanity of the situation when it comes to
Bahraini athletes who are clearly exploited
Russian athletes who are also clearly exploited
Kenyan and Ethiopian athletes
NOP
I don't feel sorry for Shelby. she could train on her own somewhere that's not near a professional team. She is not entitled to their time or their space and she should know that.
He thinks Shelby is being railroaded and the system is totally F**ed and innocent athletes are going down.
I do not believe for even a second that Jerry really thinks so. Synthetic nandro, of all things, and he claims believe it was naturally created in the uncastrated boar that somehow made it into the food chain and into Shelby's beef burrito (and that her other androgen levels were coincidentally elevated etc.). Oh and of course, he never heard of nandro...
He is laughing all the way to the bank that some people (at least pretend to) believe him. This way, he gets to keep his job and can keep pretending that BTC - unlike AW and NOP - is clean, instead seeing Nike dismantling BTC like NOP.
Fortunately, as you said, rojo, he is by and large losing the PR, even here, although you and wejo and JG keep spreading his and Shelby's PR.
Kyle Merber's newsletter has the full emailed interview with GDS. (This is the same info she sent to Let's Run and other outlets, just not redacted or edited.) Reading this in context, it seems clear to me that GDS is not the only BTC athlete who wasn't/isn't thrilled with this arrangement. She's just fortunate and brave enough to be able to leave (i.e., a top performer with a federation ready to support her)
What you wrote is not factually correct. What Kyle has is not the full interview we did with her, not even close. Jonathan emailed GDS a list of 15 questions which she answered in more than 2,500 words. There then were 3 additional folllow up questions. She asked that we not run the full Q&A as she felt it was too much of her voice - it was never her intention to make a 2,000 word statement on why she left the BTC - so we highlighted the key parts.
For similar questions, she's sometimes used statements to various media outlets but the interview you are referring to is not the one we did with her - two of his 4 questions are things we didn't ask and there are 16 other questions we did ask.
I loved his question as to what she thinks is special about the group. For us, we had a big thing in there about why she left Canada to go to train with Andy Young/Laura Muir and why she left that after only a year plus despite running well.
The more that you guys talk about this and defend Shelby, the more you sound EXACTLY like the journalists that carried water for dopers of past like that Lance Armstrong bloke, and we know how that turned out.
He thinks Shelby is being railroaded and the system is totally F**ed and innocent athletes are going down.
I do not believe for even a second that Jerry really thinks so. Synthetic nandro, of all things, and he claims believe it was naturally created in the uncastrated boar that somehow made it into the food chain and into Shelby's beef burrito (and that her other androgen levels were coincidentally elevated etc.). Oh and of course, he never heard of nandro...
He is laughing all the way to the bank that some people (at least pretend to) believe him. This way, he gets to keep his job and can keep pretending that BTC - unlike AW and NOP - is clean, instead seeing Nike dismantling BTC like NOP.
Fortunately, as you said, rojo, he is by and large losing the PR, even here, although you and wejo and JG keep spreading his and Shelby's PR.
What do you mean by “and her other androgen levels were coincidentally elevated”?
Thank you for clarifying. That's helpful. She obviously had some prepared remarks (that were common to various outlets) and then added her own voice and answered other questions, too.
High hopes wrote: The best coaches in sports across the world put the team first and Jerry is now burying the team so that he can maintain the presence of a doper around the group.
Yes, you are right. Most coaches wouldn't do what Jerry is doing. Think about this for a moment. Why would he do that? It makes zero sense for him to keep her around. If he knows she's dirty and the group is dirty, you just keep paying her and tell her to shut the F up.
There's this weird idea that's popped up a lot recently in politics when someone does something blatantly corrupt that the brazenness is somehow proof that the person is actually not corrupt because why wouldn't you hide something like that.
I see the same idea in Rojo's post. It would just be SO bad for Schumacher to keep Houlihan around if he knows she's dirty. So the fact that he does so is evidence that either she's somehow clean or at least he thinks she is. In other words there can't be a group-wide conspiracy because they're not acting the way Rojo thinks a guilty person should act.
Basically, a guilty person would try to act innocent, and so would avoid doing things that seem shady. So since BTC is doing things that make them seem shady, this means that they're not trying to act innocent, and therefore must be innocent!
Never mind that both guilty and innocent people want to convince people they're innocent, so I'm not sure why failure to do so is taken as evidence of innocence. The most straightforward interpretation is that Schumacher is at least somewhat OK with dopers.
The part that really confuses me is how anyone would assume they're clean and just bad at PR, since this whole saga started with a coordinated, extensive (and initially successful) PR campaign by BTC on behalf of Houlihan. The fact that they have come off terrible despite this is taken as evidence that they aren't really trying to win hearts and minds, and somehow this means that they're broadly innocent.
I'm not saying that BTC and Schumacher are necessarily dirty. But certainly my suspicions continue to rise as they continue to bend the rules and support a convicted doper. I'm not sure why Rojo's don't
Does no one suspect GDS of anything nefarious considering her times which includes beating her own 3K Canadian Record for 3K over the last 3K of her 5K Canadian Record, 8:30-8:33?
Rojo, you keep talking about the PR of the situation. It is more serious than that.
You keep missing the point some of us have made about the failure of leadership of Jerry (and Shalane). Of course, if they 100% believe Shelby is innocent and has been railroaded, they will want to continue to support and help her. It is possible to do this and maintain proper separation of the team's and Shelby's training to be safe. Good leaders would have handled this situation differently. Why couldn't they have explicitly told the non-banned athletes what they were doing and how it met the guidelines set by AIU or others and SHOWN them the written info from Shelby's lawyers about this (as long as this was not attorney work product protected by confidentiality). This would have taken just a LITTLE bit of thought, reflection and effort on their parts and there would have been clarity. There was no need for the opacity, confusion and drama that occurred. If someone wasn't satisfied with this, they could try to go elsewhere. Waiting for the final judgement from the Swiss Tribunal is not an excuse. Good leaders consider the effect of their actions on their teams and anticipate possible future problems.
If Shelby's appeal is rejected, I hope Jerry and Shalane donate money and use their standing in the athletics community to help reform the anti-doping morass. I don't trust the current system and have no idea of Shelby's "guilt or innocence".
And why haven't Jerry and Shalane put out a statement on behalf of the BTC since GDS's was published?
you forget you are talking about human beings in these situations until it hits close to home and you are forced to think about it.
Sad situation all around. hopefully everybody can find peace. Even those who are responsible for creating it.
Bingo. In everything in 2022, people are forgetting about humanity, that the "other side" of an argument is made up of real people.
High hopes wrote:
The best coaches in sports across the world put the team first and Jerry is now burying the team so that he can maintain the presence of a doper around the group.
Yes, you are right. Most coaches wouldn't do what Jerry is doing. Think about this for a moment. Why would he do that? It makes zero sense for him to keep her around. If he knows she's dirty and the group is dirty, you just keep paying her and tell her to shut the F up.
You've forgotten the humanity of the situation.
You wrote that Jerry is doing so he "can maintain the presence of a doper around the group." What? Why would he do that? That just hurts the group PR wise. I'd argue Jerry is doing it so he he "doesn't abandon someone he respects a great deal whom he believes is being ROYALLY screwed."
Again go back to the question I posed yesterday of ,"Do you think the WHOLE group is dirty or not?" If you think he's a dirty coach, then none of this applies but I think there is close to zero percent chance the group is a totally dirty group.
And if you are a clean coach and one of your stars whom you are very close to, whom has bought into your plan totally for 5 years, gets popped and you think it's totally unfair, you are going to react differently. It's emotional.
I've been talking about how the world is often grey not black and white but Jerry is more black and white. This is what you need to run to be world class - do it. He thought what Alberto was doing was crazy and said no and they split. He thinks Shelby is being railroaded and the system is totally F**ed and innocent athletes are going down.
PR wise, he should have reacted differently, "Under the rules, she's out. I believe in my heart she's innocent. And i"m going to devote my career to reform the anti-doping movement because it's a sham. I worked closely with a coach who was looking for a phamaceutical edge and he got away with it for years. We are trying to do things the right way and now our star athlete is out. I'm going to lead the way with a $100,000 donation."
If Jerry really were a “private coach” then his continued relationship with Houlihan would raise a lot of eyebrows but would be more understandable. But he isn’t — he’s the director of one of the leading athletics programs in the world. It should be common sense that he cannot simultaneously coach an athlete serving a doping ban and a full roster of athletes from around the world competing for global titles.
Letting Jerry’s emotions or humanity dictate his decisions here is unprofessional and frankly very unfair to the remaining athletes on the team.
I’m sure RoJo’s correct in why Jerry’s made the decision he’s made, but it’s a colossal mistake that will result in nothing positive — unless Hell freezes over and the Swiss Federal Tribunal reinstates her, this training arrangement is not remotely worth the trouble.
"I never knew of her concerns and struggles until finding out about all of this through her announcement. Having to find out about it and deal with it through such a public manner has been really hurtful and frustrating. I know her choosing not to come to me to discuss it was out of kindness and wanting to protect me and my mental health but I wish I would have been given the opportunity to have those conversations with her regarding her concerns to see if I could have cleared anything up or eased the situation for her in any way. I never wanted to have a negative impact on anyone in my decision to continue training and it hurts that I’m finding out that I did.
"Running and working out has always been a source of joy and happiness for me as well as a coping mechanism. My legal team and I have been very deliberate and intentional in contacting the AIU and other governing bodies to figure out how I can continue to run and train for my own mental health in a way that is also abiding by and respecting the rules put in place. I care about all of the athletes and staff on BTC and I was always considering them with every decision I made. I realize now that I should have been more communicative in those decisions.
"I do wish Gabriela the best with her transition and moving forward. I hope she found a training environment that’s positive and brings her happiness.
"As for my appeal, the status hasn’t changed and I am still waiting on it. I'm still running and training because it's what makes me happy but I'm also continuing to stay hopeful in clearing my name and I'm trying to trust that the truth will win in the end.
"Training and having to tackle workouts alone has at times been very difficult and challenging for me, mostly mentally and emotionally. It’s been a learning curve in establishing a new sense of normal but overall, training is going well."
Please refer to her as "the drug cheat Shelby", as you have referred to other convicted dopers in the past, such as Mary Slaney.
you forget you are talking about human beings in these situations until it hits close to home and you are forced to think about it.
Sad situation all around. hopefully everybody can find peace. Even those who are responsible for creating it.
Bingo. In everything in 2022, people are forgetting about humanity, that the "other side" of an argument is made up of real people.
High hopes wrote:
The best coaches in sports across the world put the team first and Jerry is now burying the team so that he can maintain the presence of a doper around the group.
Yes, you are right. Most coaches wouldn't do what Jerry is doing. Think about this for a moment. Why would he do that? It makes zero sense for him to keep her around. If he knows she's dirty and the group is dirty, you just keep paying her and tell her to shut the F up.
You've forgotten the humanity of the situation.
You wrote that Jerry is doing so he "can maintain the presence of a doper around the group." What? Why would he do that? That just hurts the group PR wise. I'd argue Jerry is doing it so he he "doesn't abandon someone he respects a great deal whom he believes is being ROYALLY screwed."
Again go back to the question I posed yesterday of ,"Do you think the WHOLE group is dirty or not?" If you think he's a dirty coach, then none of this applies but I think there is close to zero percent chance the group is a totally dirty group.
And if you are a clean coach and one of your stars whom you are very close to, whom has bought into your plan totally for 5 years, gets popped and you think it's totally unfair, you are going to react differently. It's emotional.
I've been talking about how the world is often grey not black and white but Jerry is more black and white. This is what you need to run to be world class - do it. He thought what Alberto was doing was crazy and said no and they split. He thinks Shelby is being railroaded and the system is totally F**ed and innocent athletes are going down.
PR wise, he should have reacted differently, "Under the rules, she's out. I believe in my heart she's innocent. And i"m going to devote my career to reform the anti-doping movement because it's a sham. I worked closely with a coach who was looking for a phamaceutical edge and he got away with it for years. We are trying to do things the right way and now our star athlete is out. I'm going to lead the way with a $100,000 donation."
It's called escalation of commitment Rojo. It is why Johnson couldn't admit Vietnam was a mistake and it is why BTC won't admit backing their doper is a mistake.
Them digging in their heals doesn't prove they think she is innocent as you imply, it proves they are all in on a losing position and hope to bluff their way out of it.
Does no one suspect GDS of anything nefarious considering her times which includes beating her own 3K Canadian Record for 3K over the last 3K of her 5K Canadian Record, 8:30-8:33?
Maybe some do. I personally don't, as she is yet to test positive for an anabolic steroid, like Shelby Houlihan has. I will therefore continue to suspect Shelby Houlihan of nefarious acts more than GDS
I get the impression you are trying as hard as possible to not understand. I know for a fact she wasn't allowed to train with her club or be coached by her coach at all neither during squad times nor outside of them so no it's not the same application of the rules. Why are you being so dense?
How do you know that she was banned from having a private coaching arrangement by the Wada code.If she could not be coached by her coach was that because of separate contract arrangements that the coach had?
The test would be could she have a private coaching arrangement at all.
You also fail to grasp that it could be the interpretation of the rules in Aus that were wrong
If you could not grasp all this it is you who would needs to sit on the dense persons step.
Ignore Armstronglies ; he has been banned many times.
Shalane has some another tweenie cryptic instagram story up rather than a statement like a professional adult would. I'm having trouble figuring the meaning of this one out though... is she saying she wants to be surrounded by drug cheats like Shelby Houlihan rather than clean athletes like GDS, because Shalane also wants to a drug cheat..?
And why haven't Jerry and Shalane put out a statement on behalf of the BTC since GDS's was published?
Seriously. Jerry needs to drop this whole JD Salinger hiding from the public and address this issue ASAP. He's doing a serious disservice to his other athletes each day that passes without making a statement.
I wish shalane would post a comment about GDS or Shelby and we can inundate her instagram with her soap box quote about choosing who you surround yourself with.