Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread

Do you agree that Singer did a poor job with the interview?

You won't get answers to questions you don't ask.

Criticizing the article/interview is pointless. The article is out there, it was well written, and I thought did a nice job of explaining everything. The fact that Mr. Singer doggedly pursued KL is impressive.

The article interview was an interview, not a sworn deposition (or a videotaped one at that). So expectations are/were as scotth described.

One thing that was not really discussed here (that I can recall) that came out in the article was the "Brad Smith" communication to scotth's newsletter. Singer certainly implied it was KL faking modesty to get his name out there about his marathon achievements - an exercise in utter narcissism which is likely the root of the alleged "why."

I think what galls most here and why this thread holds interest is the engendered anger caused by the fact that someone might literally cut corners in a sport that requires much self sacrifice and hard work to excel at whatever level is desired - more specifically, it takes a lot of hard work and real dedication for a masters guy to get to and below 2:50. It cheapens the achievement when someone may be doing it dishonestly. Same could be said if there was an analogous situation involvinig a 4 hr marathoner. Jean's Marines were rightly trashed here and also officially dq'd for their antics and they were 5 hr people. Enough rambling..

Hmmmmmm wrote:

Nothing was going to pry the 'how' or the 'why' from Dr David Kip Litton. Nothing.

Do you agree that Singer did a poor job with the interview?

You won't get answers to questions you don't ask.[/quote]

An important part of my response is above. Many here assume Mark didn't ask the right questions because Kip didn't confess his deceit, share the 'how' & 'why'. That wasn't going to happen in that Wendy's or anywhere on Planet Earth.

Know also Mark & Kip had a correspondence going prior to the interview and questions about cheating came up regularly. It's not like each came into the fast-food place w/out a history. Kip knew Mark felt he was guilty of cheating. Kip's capacity to be obtuse is well known and certainly would've come to play if Mark had shared pics and splits w/him. Mark could ask the most pointed question and Kip would dodge and deny. I know, because he dodged & denied mine. However, his agreement to take down his WRR web site is as damning a bit of confession as any.

The point has been made Kip didn't raise much of a fuss about the DQ's. Put yourself in his shoes - if YOU felt you were innocent, wouldn't you quickly protest your alleged guilt and provide evidence, documentation, etc to prove it? Of course you would. Kip did NOT. Ever. He's as guilty as this thread is long.

So, it is best not to ask? That's ridiculous.

scotth wrote:

Hmmmmmm wrote:

Nothing was going to pry the 'how' or the 'why' from Dr David Kip Litton. Nothing.

Do you agree that Singer did a poor job with the interview?

You won't get answers to questions you don't ask.

An important part of my response is above. Many here assume Mark didn't ask the right questions because Kip didn't confess his deceit, share the 'how' & 'why'. That wasn't going to happen in that Wendy's or anywhere on Planet Earth.

Know also Mark & Kip had a correspondence going prior to the interview and questions about cheating came up regularly. It's not like each came into the fast-food place w/out a history. Kip knew Mark felt he was guilty of cheating. Kip's capacity to be obtuse is well known and certainly would've come to play if Mark had shared pics and splits w/him. Mark could ask the most pointed question and Kip would dodge and deny. I know, because he dodged & denied mine. However, his agreement to take down his WRR web site is as damning a bit of confession as any.

The point has been made Kip didn't raise much of a fuss about the DQ's. Put yourself in his shoes - if YOU felt you were innocent, wouldn't you quickly protest your alleged guilt and provide evidence, documentation, etc to prove it? Of course you would. Kip did NOT. Ever. He's as guilty as this thread is long.[/quote]

It is not pointless to discuss the article. The article is out there in the public domain and is fair game. As many on here have already stated, the writer did an inadequate job in disclosing any information that could not already be found on the first 100 pages of this thread. His delivery was impressive, but his substance was woefully lacking. Many of on here are wondering why Singer did not ask the hard questions. It is a fair question to ask.

Hmmmmmm wrote:

It is not pointless to discuss the article. The article is out there in the public domain and is fair game. As many on here have already stated, the writer did an inadequate job in disclosing any information that could not already be found on the first 100 pages of this thread. His delivery was impressive, but his substance was woefully lacking.

Many of on here are wondering why Singer did not ask the hard questions. It is a fair question to ask.

I asked this last week; what in the world makes you think he didn't ask 'hard' questions?

Hmmmmmm wrote:

Do you agree that Singer did a poor job with the interview?

You won't get answers to questions you don't ask.

What a moron. You didn't read the article. Read page 50 for the first time and you can see how it is that Litton simply makes sh!t up on the fly. And he isn't even good at it. During the interview, when Litton was so clumsily succeeding at digging himself into a rhetorical hole, Singer artfully let each of Litton's small lies stand, because they forced Litton to maintain the ruse and continue to dig himself deeper. In the e-mail exchanges I've read in which Litton is being called out, his responses - each taken at face value - look like lies your average 5th grader would tell his parents before getting grounded. Taken together, they're pathetic.

I'm curious how you would have conducted the interview. Post the twenty or so questions you would have asked during a two-hour interaction with Litton. I'll predict that you won't do it because either

a) you're Litton,

b) you're a moron and have no idea how to interview someone, or

c) you're just a lazy troll.

Scott is right. Basically The guy lies and lies and can't admit any wrongdoing. If you were in on the internal investigation with mark singer and Scott hubbard you would know this. My understanding was Many emails were shot back and forth between mark and Kip where kip sent a bunch of bullshit nonsense answers back to mark. Scott has had Kip LIE to him COUNTLESS times! I know either mark or Scott...that They got Kip to confess about making up the West Wyoming marathon as his response you can see in the article is that it was part of a family trip or something? I can't recall exactly what it was In article (dont have it in front of me right now), but through my own kip Litton investigating I sort of believe this as Kip litton's Facebook pictures (before he made his FB profile private) with Lisa and his kids showed him in the Jackson Hole area around the time of the race. I also looked through Kip Littons Facebook wall posts and It showed Kip bragging things about his running (lies) on his Facebook wall...one of them was about the 2010 COX providence marathon where he talks about trailing off marathon junkie Chuck Engle in the first half mile. This was impossible though because unlike Chuck (and any other top finisher) kip took like 3 minutes or thereabouts just to cross the starting line at Providence. This was also the race where kip changed shoes. Another FB wall post of Litton's was about the number of miles he ran and biked for the entire year. Another FB wall post Kip bragged thaf he too his easy days very easy, ONLY 7-7:30 pace per mile ( something like that). Of course this sounded like bullshit because 7:00 pace would be close to a tempo run for someone of Kip's supposed fitness level. When I first saw these interesting posts on kips FB profile wall, I figured the guy was doing this cheating in these marathons to impress people. Mark Singers interviews with a person who knew kip from high school or college (cant remember) said kip would do strange things to seek attention (you can see this in article). Distance running is a sport people are very impressed with so you can sort of understand that Kip's main motivation may have been what a lot of us shoot for, to be respected and admired by others.

It would be cool to like pressure his wife and try to get her to talk about what kip has said to her or admitted, if anything, but chances are that if you try to put yourself in Kips wifes shoes, its really sad as his wife is probably thinking maybe that her husband needs some help, and probably she feels disgusted and ashamed by all this coverage in the New Yorker now and completely avoiding the discussion with her friends and gatherings with neighbors in the Clarkston area. That's just my guess, who knows It's not something I feel good about but if someone in his family has a head that's screwed on right, maybe someday we'll get some better answers on what they know about kip's HOW. Does One of KIPS troll posts in this thread give some idea? it says that Kip's wife provided gear changes along the course. Hmm could that mean she was somehow an accomplice?

The why I think is just what a lot of us runners shoot for, which is respect and admiration from others we know- friends, family, relatives. For kip, friends, family and relatives and his entire patient base, maybe also his intelligent univ of Michigan alumni friends, etc.

If you guys remember the old Kip litton threads that the LetsRun mods foolishly deleted back in october'ish 2010, You would be able to see that Kip had a close friend named Dan Baxley who came onto these letsrun boards furious that we letsrunners thought Litton was a cheat. Mr Dan Baxley who resides in Florida quickly disappeared and shut his trap once the mountains of evidence came. Im not sure if Mr Baxley still believes his friend kip is innocent or what.

Looks like Kip is still at it with a post in the comments section of everything that comes out online about him, Flint Journal and RunnersWorld, trying to appear anonymous and saying that he has sterling ethical reputation, etc etc etc. ..........as others have said This is classic Litton.

CONGRATS KIP wrote:

TOP 10 HOBBYJOGGER CHEATERS IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT?

what are your TOP 10?

10. "Jane's Marines" @ Marine Corps Marathon

9. Christina Noble - DQ'ed at Sarasota Marathon

8. 2010 Xiamen Marathon Runners - China (30% of top 100 runners were found to have cheated)

7.

6. Martin Franklin

5. Anthony Gaskell

4.

3. Rob Sloan

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047816/Rob-Sloan-Kielder-Marathon-runner-shaved-6-miles-catching-spectator-bus.html

2. Dr. David Kip Litton, DDS

http://kiplitton.blogspot.com/

1. Rosie Ruiz

Interesting

Rosie Ruiz wasn't trying to be a hobbyjogger though. She ran in front of elite runners

If you type "Kip" into Google the first thing that comes up is Kip Litton New Yorker article.

I predict in five years "Kipped" will make it into Websters.

There are more curious race results out there if you look. Check out the Dexter to Ann Arbor half marathon, 2008:

http://resultsarchive.active.com/pages/searchform.jsp#hot_links

(A 2 min gun-chip differential)

4 people were jumped over in the final standings because the differential.

Here's one the two finishing pix, the only ones that pop up on a search.

("man in black look")

http://www.runphotos.com/packages.cfm?file_name=finish/68_0135.JPG

A brief look at other finishers show pix on the course.

Draw your own conclusions.

Still no evidence of Dr. Litton leaving a course and returning to it at a later stage? I thought so.

I guess I should have expected such low journalistic standards of the New Yorker.

What would you accept as evidence that Kip cheated? What is it that you want to see?

I asked this 10 pages ago and you never answered it. Either answer my question or stop saying there is no evidence.

He has likely hired one or more of the online reputation repair outfits to do his dirty work.

Kirkaz wrote:

Looks like Kip is still at it with a post in the comments section of everything that comes out online about him, Flint Journal and RunnersWorld, trying to appear anonymous and saying that he has sterling ethical reputation, etc etc etc. ..........as others have said This is classic Litton.

The writer didn't follow up with any of Litton's "witnesses."

Why not?

Kippy gone mad wrote:

CONGRATS KIP wrote:

TOP 10 HOBBYJOGGER CHEATERS IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT?

what are your TOP 10?

10. "Jane's Marines" @ Marine Corps Marathon

9. Christina Noble - DQ'ed at Sarasota Marathon

8. 2010 Xiamen Marathon Runners - China (30% of top 100 runners were found to have cheated)

7.

6. Martin Franklin

5. Anthony Gaskell

4.

3. Rob Sloan

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047816/Rob-Sloan-Kielder-Marathon-runner-shaved-6-miles-catching-spectator-bus.html

2. Dr. David Kip Litton, DDS

http://kiplitton.blogspot.com/

1. Rosie Ruiz

Interesting

I'm good w/Kip coming in @ #2. Although the entire spectacle of Kip's deceit dwarfs Rosie's, she did it on Earth's biggest stage w/a fake win.

Ah, Christina Noble, Brighton, MI. A fine tri/duathlete & runner who cheated in several races a few years ago and got DQ'd in Sarasota. I heard about it several weeks after it all happened and since she represented a club I admire, took a longer look at the details. I did because her club was protesting her guilt as she claimed she was innocent. I called the Sarasota RD and we talked for 30 minutes. I'd already done some homework to learn what I could about her DQ and it seemed there was ample reason to do so.

The Sarasota RD confirmed everythng I'd read about the DQ, providing other damning info also. Following that I wrote the head of the club to tell him Noble was guilty as charged. He didn't like hearing this, feeling deceived by Noble. But he knew I was right as I layed out the details and how the DQ was arrived at. I next contacted Noble who denied the whole thing, saying she was innocent. I told her that her story didn't wash and the Sarasota people were right to DQ her. I also asked her about missing & uneven split times at the Detroit Free Press Marathon held prior to Sarasota & she gave bad answers to explain herself.

There were direct witnesses at Sarasota who passed her twice. Guilty as heck.