Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

i agree with spencer wrote:

why not add in Mo...a top 10 kinda guy that hit his stride in his late years and continues to run at a top notch level...yeah PEDs dont work

For sure I am suspicious of Mo Farah. his career arc and late career improvement is improbable.

I did not include him because, however much suspicion I have, I do not know for sure whether he has used EPO, some other PEDS, or a combination, or possibly nothing at all.

His late career improvement does not prove EPO works or conversely that EPO does not work.

I am being told there is not evidence of EPO working at the top level. That is just false. There are example and it is not hard to find them. This is not as compelling of evidence as a clinical trial would be, but it supports the same conclusion.

There are many, many fast runners (some even faster than some of the confirmed EPO users) who have not tested postive for EPO. Their presence does nothing to prove or disprove the efficacy of EPO.

Can please explain what all the description of Amgen products has to do with the performances of the best runners ? Frankly, I don't understand if there is some connection, when clearly they speak of " be used in treating conditions characterized by disorders of blood and bone marrow, neurodegenerative diseases such as ALS, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, or traumatic nerve injury."

maybe canova can explain why then EPO has been being used by top mountaineers doing fast and light ascents in the Alps, and Himalaya's

i mean why would you be taking EPO as a top athlete in mountaineering for being super high in altitude if EPO doesnt work on kenyans at 8,000ft?

what is it canova? EPO works on slugs at sea level but no one else? or it doesnt work at all as a PED and people are wasting their money? or you dose it correctly with diuretics and iron supplements to maximize the RBC production during the base training phase?

There is only a "little" particular that you don't consider : TRAINING.

I never said EPO doesn't work on Kenyan. I never said EPO doesn't work with people living in altitude.

What I said, and I confirm again, is that THE TRAINING OF THE BEST ATHLETES BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE INDUCES PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES THAT ARE MORE IMPORTANT FOR THE PERFORMANCE THAN THE ASSUMPTION OF EPO.

And I think that EPO has some NEGATIVE EFFECT on the body that goes to compensate the POSITIVE EFFECT of the increased ability to transport O2.

I don't deny the fact EPO can enhance Hct and Hb : simply, these two factors are not THE ONLY REASON BECAUSE ATHLETES OF ENDURANCE IMPROVE THEIR PERFORMANCES, and, with the assumption of EPO if you already are in hard and smart training, probably you go to inhibit some other physiological activity, with the final result that the performance BECOMES WORSE.

This is something that, till now, NOBODY STUDIED. It's a fact that I always worked with athletes completely clean, and some of them is still at the top of the world. And is a fact that many other athletes coached by many other coaches were able to reach the top of the world without using anything illegal, in many cases without using ANYTHING (also legal).

Could these athletes running faster if they were doped ? Nobody knows, but I don't see any reason because the best are clean and who follows is doped, if EPO really could work at top level.

You continue to show me a list of athletes who used EPO. Ok, they were able to achieve good performances, but who can say they couldn't achieve the same result, or also better, changing their training and remaining completely clean ?

In October 2014 I received an email from the responsible of the IAAF development of the center of Moscow. The email started in this way :

"Renato, as you know, in Russia we have great problems of doping. Can you come here and explain how is possible to run fast completely clean ?".

I went there for a clinic lasting two days. There were about 100 national coaches. The first question I asked them, before starting to speak about training, was : "Can some of you explain when this year (2014) NO RUSSIAN ATHLETES WERE ABLE TO RUN 5000m FASTER THAN VLADIMIR KUTS IN 1957 (13'35") and 10000m FASTER THAN PIOTR BOLOTNIKOV IN 1960 ?"

Do you think in 1957 there was EPO ? Or, simply, the training of many years ago was MORE AGGRESSIVE, with MORE VOLUME, less SCIENTIFIC, more WILD, and the general motivation was higher ?

Instead speaking about EPO era, ask yourself why in ECh 1978 in Prague 9 athletes ran 10000m between 27'30" and 27'41" without African naturalized, ask yourself why Mamede and Lopes (who were not African, and very white...) ran in 27'12" and 27'17", and now it's difficult to find some European under 28'.

Ask yourself why, in 1967, one athlete with one kidney only, Franz-Josef Kemper, was able running the European Record in 1'44"9 and now the best German specialist doesn't run under 1'46".

Ask yourself why, in Rome Olympic 1960, two athletes, Karl Kaufmann and Otis Davis, ran 400m in 44"9 on a dirty track, without days of recovery in the middle, when training was 3-4 days per week only, they didn't use lifting weights, and nothing of scientific there was behind these performances.

Ask yourself all these things, and after you can start to have some answer about the effects of training and the effect of doping.

And, again, for speaking we have to know the athletic history, and to learn from the past, something very few people are able to do.

I agree...let's learn from the past:

I've been away 5 days and this thread has mushroomed.So prior to the ABP, if an athlete could run faster than 12:53 they would run it 2.13 times in their careers but now the top athletes can only do it once. What a way to demonstrate progression. So athletes are now inferior, but still no epo benefits.

Always fascinated to read your posts and I in no way want to detract from your or your athletes achievements. I'm in the camp that believes drugs must be going on and everyone has always done whatever is available at the time. Whether amphetamines, steroids, blood doping, ephedrine, there have always been drugs to give an edge and EPO is only a different type of edge.

I don't believe American athletes are clean and African's are not.

If drugs are being used you clearly still need extreme training to get the performances you're getting. But drugs would fascilitate that training and stop the body breaking down.

Now maybe you're right and there isn't doping with your team, but to me I'd think doping was just part of covering all bases and being a pro.

Happy Hour wrote:

I agree...let's learn from the past:

^This. I always have to laugh, when people here seriously think that the star athletes of the 60s and 70s were clean.

Some even pretend that the 80s were clean, at least on this side of the curtain. ROFL.

In the 90s, the new EPO had to made up the "losses" coming from declining steroid uses caused by increased and improved steroid testing. That was enough for new records in Europe in the 5000, both male and female, but not in the 800, neither male nor female. But, we have been there.

Hello Renato.

The Italians are in Flagstaff right now.

They like Flagstaff when there is a lot of snow.

You know that almost all the physiology people and medical doctors in the world, which is lots of people writing lots of articles in lots of science journals around the world…do not agree with you and rekrunner. You and rekrunner like to say that all of them do not apply in your special situation that is basically impossible to study under the extremely restrictive criteria that you use, so the study will never be done in some type of double blind experiment.

(The study is actually being done at the Olympics or London marathon where about 1 out of 3 medal winners has suspicious blood test values.)

Agatha Jeruto (800m runner) was banned for 19-norandrosterone (major metabolite of the anabolic steroid nandrolone) in 2015. She was coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Matthew Kisorio was banned for nandrolone in 2012, and was coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Rita Jeptoo (who you coached in the past before Claudio Berardelli) was banned for 4 years for EPO. She was coached by Claudio Berardelli.

Claudio Berardelli had a lot of bad luck with his runners and was then charged with doping.

Have the charges been dropped yet against Claudio Berardelli?

You told us that you were sure that Rita Jeptoo only used EPO only before the 2014 Chicago marathon.

Unfortunately, the CAS determined that there was evidence that Rita Jeptoo actually used EPO for a much longer period of time, which is why they are also taking away the 2014 Boston marathon title and course record of 2:18:57, in addition to the the 2014 Chicago marathon title.

“According to the applicable rules, the minimum period of ineligibility in this situation is a sanction of two years but can be increased to up to four years in the case of aggravating circumstances. The panel is comfortably satisfied that there are aggravating circumstances in the case at hand as it was obvious to the panel that the athlete used rEPO as part of a scheme or plan.”

The statement added: “The evidence for this includes her long relationship with the doctor in question, her multiple visits to see him, that her rEPO use was consistent with her competition calendar, that she hid the visits to the doctor in question from her manager and coach, as well as her deceptive and obstructive conduct throughout the proceedings.

“Weighing all the evidence, the panel is comfortably satisfied that the circumstances warrant a period of ineligibility of four years.”

The Boston Marathon people also want $175,000 of prize money returned from Rita Jeptoo.

Do you know when Rita Jeptoo will give back the $175,000 to the Boston Marathon people?

I agree with you that the effect of training is greater that the effect of EPO. I guess/estimate the effect of EPO is 2 to 3% in elite athletes, but not 0% or any decrease in performance...except for the side effects...such as death. There is no evidence for a decrease in performance from EPO.

Nobody has said that hemoglobin levels are the only factor in aerobic endurance performance. It is one important factor of several important factors in aerobic endurance performance.

Other factors that have an effect on increasing VO2max, lactate threshold, and running economy/efficiency are found inside the skeletal muscle with increases in the number and size of mitochondria, mitochondrial enzymes, and the components of the electron transport chain (which is located on the inner mitochondrial membrane) which produce ATP through the process of oxidative phosphorylation, which then acts as the energy fuel for muscular contraction...and the ability to run marathons at a high speed.

For some more reading on this topic, here is a study on cyclists.

(I know that the study is not on runners and that rekrunner will say that the study does not count.)

This study looked at some of the important factors in aerobic endurance performance:

It was a fun little study to read.

Aragon wrote:

1) I've never called Alyisa Montaño a liar, only accurately pointed out that the quotation attributed to her about isn't an accurate assesment of Y-O-Y improvement pattern of Savinova's performances during any part of her career. Whether the "2:02 to 1:56" is due to Montaño's comparison of the race to an earlier race against the Russian or whether she confused the Savinova with another Russian isn't clear if the information is even originally from her (she might've just repeated what she heard).

Montano seems very certain that she "watched" Savinova reduce her 800 time 6 seconds in one year. Here's the paragraph of her direct quote from the Wash Post interview:

"Make no mistake: Montaño knew it the whole time. In a sport that rewards incremental improvement, she saw her Russian competition emerge from nowhere. Montaño regarded implementing a new core routine that shaved .012 seconds off her time as a major accomplishment. Meantime, she watched Savinova whittle her 800 time from roughly 2 minutes, 2 seconds to 1 minute, 56 seconds in a year."

On Montaño's times improving over that 2 year period: Comparable...yes, but there's no evidence that Montaño doped anytime in her career. OTOH, Stepanova initiates a program of EPO & Turinabolan, and from a baseline of 2:13 (previous PB of 2:08) improves to 1:58 in 2 years. If her coaches believed she was talented enough to achieve that type of improvement naturally through training, why then the PED program? Perhaps she showed a high response in the initial stages of the program and it was full throttle from that point onward.

And Savinova's achievements are profoundly remarkable: A 6 second improvement in one year and 3 medals; one Gold in the Olympics, and a Gold & Silver at the WC. And defeating runner-up Semenya (who, btw, has hyperandrogenism) by a wide margin in two straight years (2011 WC & 2012 London), is mind blowing in itself 😨. According to the McLaren report, her cocktail was EPO & Oxandrolone. And once again, if she was so talented and demonstrated potential to achieve those kind of results clean, why would her coaches engage in a systematic program specifically designed for her? IMO, PEDs, with selected high-responders, allowed these athletes to break through barriers that they normally couldn't have broken.

This PED program with the Russian runners is egregious 😠. In addition, the McLaren report states that Savinova's test from the Olympics was covered-up...so she should have tested positive back then. WADA is calling for a lifetime ban, so the IOC needs to step-up to the plate and strip her of the medals.

This quote was specifically about Baumann (45th best performer at 5000m with the best non-African performance of all time), and more generally about non-Africans -- sorry if that wasn't clear from the context. Who's the fastest non-African during the period of the great EPO-era? Simon Vroemen with 8:04.95?

Mr. Obvious wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Given the "universalness" and the assumed prevalence of abuse, "effective" performances shouldn't be restricted to East Africans and the odd North African. We shouldn't have to dig below the top 40 to find the best example we can find of EPO effectiveness, from a runner actually busted for a steroid.

You are making up this claim, and it is demonstrably false. Brahim Boulami ran faster on EPO than anybody else has ever run.

...

canova you are a dope..............

your story chops and changes the whole time

truth mixed with lies equals deception and why .........

1.

TRAINING you say ,

what aids training and more importantly recovery

so that there will be performance increases ... very simple epo.

2.

the lack of top european distance runners just reflects many things beside epo .

coinsided with many other things till what see now ,

hardly any serious participation at all levels and stages

and an attitude of you cannot beat the best anyway

that is aided by chronic use of peds especially epo

and the likes of crooked coaches like yourself

3.

the russians know exactly what is happening , they have been doping

from the start

dont play stupid .

the russian men box or do other sports or events than long distance period

rekrunner wrote:

. Who's the fastest non-African during the period of the great EPO-era? Simon Vroemen with 8:04.95?

...

[/quote]

Billy Fap wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

. Who's the fastest non-African during the period of the great EPO-era? Simon Vroemen with 8:04.95?

...

[/quote]

Vroemen was Adienne Herzog's boyfriend. Hahaha

Bad choice of a name, Rekkie.

"Kabayo wrote:

The girl was in a relationship with 15 year older steeplechaser Simon Vroemen starting at age 17; a guy who wasn't exactly the cleanest bloke on the block.

If you're dealing with those kind of people that young, doping must be the same as eating, sleeping and training to you.

Furthermore; her dad was a reasonalbly good cross-country ski...so that doesn't tell much good to,

Then there was herzog being managed by Matschiner; self proclaimed 'maker of champions' and initiator of the Human Plasma doping ring,

Her going to train with Pascua in Spain and her involvement with Alberto Leon (who killed himself after being exposed as a doping dealer in eracion Puerto) fit the profile of an abbusive user as well.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5789920&page=1#ixzz4XTUSzZTF

"

Were you not paying attention? Even better. Best non-African busted for EPO only runs a best time of 8:04.95, 12 seconds slower than best doped African Boulami, producing the 161st best all time performance. The 12 second difference between Vroemen and Boulami is NOT EPO.The rest of the global population of non-Africans missed the EPO-train for decades -- while hundreds of Africans allegedly found the EPO-express. I find that incredible.There are factors way more significant than EPO that explains world records from the '90s and 2000's.

Billy Fap wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Who's the fastest non-African during the period of the great EPO-era? Simon Vroemen with 8:04.95?

...

Bad choice of a name, Rekkie.

Injury issue wrote:

Kenyan Track distance records

1000m

1500m

1 mile

2000m

2miles

3000m

5000m

10000m

Every record is over 15 years old

If there wasn't an Epo era these records would have been surpassed by new talent .The switch to road doesn't explain it away.

Kim McDonald.

This just proves altitude training isn't as good as EPO. I feel sorry for some of the cleaner present day Kenyan runners struggling away with no credit for their endeavours.

3) is correct, Russian men mostly play/do other sports, it is simply too cold in most parts of Russia in winter to be a long distance runner.