HonestNauman wrote:
Ok, answer the question I've asked several times: why is it that the only evidence Magness provided was the purported record of Rupp listing one item from a 2002 entry?
Are you serious? Magness was not supposed to see the report. It was intended for Salazar's eyes only. Magness took a photo of the one thing he saw. Salazar would have made sure Magness never saw another report. Salazar is now livid that a photo was taken unbeknownst to him.
This is insane wrote:
So a few important points to make.
1. Intentional or unintentional use of legitimately prescribed medication in an unprescribed manner is illegal.
2. The non-medical use of prescription medications implies that the person is using the drug for reasons other than those indicated in the prescribing literature or other off-label uses prescribed by a clinician. This is illegal.
3. Regarding Rupp's possible use of testosterone to "offset" the effects of his prednisone. Physiologically speaking, the use of exogenous corticosteroids would suppress adrenal hormone production, which includes testosterone. Supplementing with exogenous testosterone to mitigate that undesirable side effect of prednisone would probably work. But is doesn't change the fact that testosterone is a banned substance.
4. Suggesting Goucher should take Cytomel, which is a thyroid hormone (T3), is both stupid and illegal. She was already taking thyroid hormone replacement for Hashimoto's disease: which unlike Rupp's "hypothyroidism," Hashimotos is an autoimmune condition that can be definitively diagnosed by specific serum antibodies that are specific to that disease. It's hard to bullshit that diagnosis.
Regardless of whether Salazar was violating WADA rules or not, if the stories are true, he was distributing prescription medication for non-medical use. Which is illegal. He should be in serious legal trouble. The physicians are that are working with NOP to supply them with this stuff should lose their damn licenses.
Exactly- the concrete allegations in the article here are of criminal activity relating to controlled substances. And Nike is at risk here if their lab was evaluating Alex Salazar's self-administered testosterone gel experiments. It is illegal to do this type of testing outside of the FDA's regulations regarding clinical trials and human subject protection.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and not rush to judgement here. People were throwing bricks at the UVA frat house a few months ago based on media hype and then the story didn't withstand scrutiny.
HonestNauman wrote:
Second, Magness supposedly had access to all the training info and the only "proof" he can offer is a picture "purportedly" of Rupp's chart from 2002???!!
*** Why would Magness, who worked at NOP for approx 2 yrs (2010-2012ish) not have pictures/evidence to document 2010-2012 doping. And in a much more compelling way. Are we to believe NOP kept meticulous records (I mean the picture of a "record" from 2002) and Magness had access but he couldn't come up with anything better?
Maybe, just maybe, Salazar was trying to keep this whole doping thing, I don't know, a secret? And so maybe he didn't tend to leave lots of hard evidence lying around? And perhaps, when he hires a new coach, he doesn't immediately divulge the entire history of doping at NOP, but instead sends out a few feelers first? And could it be possible that if said coach directly confronted Salazar with doping allegations just a month into his tenure, and I don't know I'm just totally speculating here, maybe Salazar would know enough to keep that coach out of the doping loop until he could quietly part ways with said coach?
But yeah nevermind, your version is probably right. Salazar totally would have given Magness boatloads of hard, indisputable evidence in the year after he was confronted about the Rupp charts if he really was running a doping program.
Absolutely...and with the world's journalists coming to Portland and Eugene the next few years...it's probably best not too have them poking their noses around. Let's face it...another Nike-back drug cover-up, with a renowned cheat will take up most of the pre-race hype.
Sacrificial Goat wrote:
Salazar will absolutely be given up as a sacrifice by Nike. Also, Rupp and Farah. The payout has to be big, and getting the top three will satisfy WADA and the USADA. Why? Because it will scare the crap out of anyone else trying to stretch the rules like Salazar has.
Two sided mouth wrote:The threat of litigation. We saw how that worked out for Lance. Alberto is much less important to their bottom line than Lance. They won't back him...they'll let him flail.
Chronic Liar wrote:
...
Have you ever dealt with a chronic liar/ manipulator. That is what they do. Lie and manipulate. Constantly. They don't always plan it out. They are compelled to do so to protect their constructed self-image of superiority. When their back is up against the wall their only concern is wiggling out just a bit so they can lie and deny another day. ...
This ^ x 1,000,000,000
If nothing else comes of this whole thing but that a few people come to "get" this about liars then it will be very worthwhile.
Very well said.
I expect it may have been mentioned somewhere in these 22 pages but I wonder if this has anything to do with Mary Cain getting slower and then quitting. Maybe tipped off or even working with anti-doping.
I also doubt they'd go public with all this during USADA's investigation if it weren't ready to move yet, so as not to compromise it.
Maybe there is a connection in the sense that thyroid hormone modifies response to altitude, and it's well known that all NOP athletes use altitude tents (or houses).
Phenom Man wrote:
If Magness was actually chosen to be Salazar's assistant coach, he would have known about the the possible PED use in it's entirety. The fact that in his entire time there he only has one piece of evidence supporting his claims makes me suspicious. You would think that the assistant coach would have a more inside look at the happenings behind the scenes. He would have been there for many workouts, meetings, talks with Alberto that would have given him a more concrete insight as to what was happening. We know Alberto has all his athletes on Thyroid medication. We know this. The possibility of microdosing is very real but there's just no evidence to support this.
Give this a thought: if you are providing potential illegal medications, would you tell everyone what you're doing? Even assistants/all athletes in the group? A key to keeping illegal/suspicious activities is keeping it as silent as possible. The more people that know, them more potential there is for leaks getting out, so keep it between the athlete and coach as much as possible.
My best comparison would be an athlete-coach romantic relationship---do you think telling assistants or letting othe people know is the smart thing to do? No, keep it as tightly shut as possible or else eventually someone will find out and blow the whistle on you.
adesdf wrote:
Maybe there is a connection in the sense that thyroid hormone modifies response to altitude, and it's well known that all NOP athletes use altitude tents (or houses).
A blast from the past. From wikipedia:
Nike Oregon Project > Criticisms
In 2002, the Oregon Project came under scrutiny from the United States Anti-Doping Agency, which formed a think tank to discuss the ethics of the high altitude house. The Agency's Senior Managing Director, Larry Bowers said, "The argument for altitude rooms is that they make up for those athletes that can't live high. What they don't take into account is that people living high don't get the benefits of training low." Alberto Salazar was confident the Anti-Doping Agency would ultimately approve the altitude house, saying that it's no different from other legal scientific advances like heart rate monitors and sports drinks.
In 2006, the subject was revisited more thoroughly by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) which claimed that it could be equivalent to blood doping and therefore they should be banned; however, on September 16, 2006, Dick Pound of the WADA announced that "...the overwhelming consensus of our health, medicine and research committees – was that, at this time, it is not appropriate to do so." No explanation was given as to how WADA would have enforced a ban.
Come on guys, nothing to see here. Don't tell me you never sent pills to anyone overseas inside a hollowed out book! COME ON!!!
You could speculate that Cain or her family may have been uncomfortable with the idea of taking medication for non-existent symptoms .
The FBI needs to go after the weakest links hard. Interrogate Hasay and Cain until they cry for mama. I'd be OK with Hasay and Cain only getting 10 years if it puts Rupp, Centro, Mo, Salazar and Radcliffe away for good.
They should hit NOPe and nike with the RICO act. Salazar should get life in Supermax for being a drug kingpin.
Sister Slide wrote:
Come on guys, nothing to see here. Don't tell me you never sent pills to anyone overseas inside a hollowed out book! COME ON!!!
Illegal drugs magically enter the U.S. and hollowed out books child's play. One of the interesting way I read about was a hollowed-out battery. The battery actually worked, but drug sniffing dog knew there was something else inside.
Duck and Cover wrote:
HonestNauman wrote:Ok, answer the question I've asked several times: why is it that the only evidence Magness provided was the purported record of Rupp listing one item from a 2002 entry?
Are you serious? Magness was not supposed to see the report. It was intended for Salazar's eyes only. Magness took a photo of the one thing he saw. Salazar would have made sure Magness never saw another report. Salazar is now livid that a photo was taken unbeknownst to him.
So it's rampant, everyone involved at NOP knows about but it's hidden, too?!
"Magness was not supposed to see...intended for Salazar's eyes only...Salazar would have made sure...is now livid." Talk about speculation.
It's all part of AlSal's diabolical plot that everyone is aware of/a part of yet still hidden. Can't wait to see the movie!
I understand AlSal's no saint and aggressively tries to push the limits of the rules but give me a break your wild speculative imagination of how AlSal operates and what he thinks/thought.
Your answer to my question, btw, is less than convincing.
Concupiscurd wrote:
Wow - I think you're right.
ijenns318 wrote:http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-32877702Look at the 2nd video down, which describes "a runner" coached by Salazar. If you watch the video, it's almost entirely obvious that it's Cam Levins (if you've ever watched an interview of Levins talking, you can tell that it's him by the way he speaks) with maybe something that altered the audio of his voice a bit so people wouldn't know it was him.
Good on him though; I'm glad he's speaking out about this and even though he requested to remain anonymous, it's good to know that he's a good guy and actually questioned drug use. I think he should speak out about this un-anonymously because I'm like 90% sure it's Levins in the interview.
It says 'ACTOR'S VOICE' near the bottom of the video for the first several seconds.
I wonder if micro-dosing of testosterone aggravates some of the sporadic, severe acne centro seems to get. I've read about and seen pictures about how testosterone doping resulted in boxers/MMA fighters getting acne and centro seems to have had it similarly at meets in the past.
No one is saying everyone at NOP knows about it brother. That's not how something stays secret. Use your brain.
No, EPO is not an equalizer, because there is no way that athletes with less taletnt can reach the same level of athletes with better talent in long distances, of course if the most talented athletes have proper training.
What I say is that tough and proper training for the best African runners, born and training in altitude, produces physiological effects that can't be enhanced by any blood doping coming from external sources.
The effect of top training, and the effects of blood doping, are not cumulable.
With 4 months of proper hard training, for example, top athletes can increase their total volume of blood of about 25%, maintaining a very low viscosity, and this allows blood to circulate faster in the circulatory system. The same can't happen using EPO, since there is some increase in viscosity.
I don't have any "advanced science degree", but I coach many of the best Kenyan and Ethiopian in the World, I use to do blood tests for controlling their health, and this is exactly the reason because I know what happens with training, while who has an "advanced science degree" doesn't know, because the only thing they can know is the effect of easy training on average athletes (a statistical population very far from the population of top African athletes).
About the last paragraph, I can forgive everybody, but I can't avoid to give the plate of "not honest and stupid idiot" to people speaking about other people without knowing anything of them.
For example, now I'm the head coach in China for middle and long distances, and when I saw an athlete, last year before Asian Games, with strange parameters in their blood values (I had the opportunity to do, with all the National Team, weekly blood tests as research for collecting values about the evolution of the blood situation during training in altitude, since in Duoba, 2300m, there is a lab working every day), not included in National Team before (only the athletes officially in National Team are tested by the Chinese Antidoping Agency every 10 days - two weeks, every time of the season), I asked to the Chinese Agency itself to control that athletes, who at the end was banned for two years, because took EPO.
This only for explaining my position about doping.
Now, I repeat again : when we can finally discuss the effects of training at top level, and only at that time, we can start to understand the real effets of doping (I speak about blood doping, since it's acclarated that steroids can give advantages, under the side of muscle strength and ability to recover, that clean training can't produce).
Wejo: next press conference ask Alpha Male and Saladbar if the'll agree to take a lie detector test live on Flotrack.
"... a box arrived at his hotel room. Inside it he found a paperback thriller. Confused, he flipped it open. A section of the pages had been hollowed out to form a compartment into which two pills were taped. "At that point," Magness says, "my mind was like, this is stuff you see in movies, this is extremely strange."
Sounds pretty normal.