All dopers, everywhere, have a "belief" that doping will help them. They are mostly right. That's why they do it. If they are wrong - as you suggest - then we might infer that Kenyans are dumber than everyone else, because they dope more than anyone else in the sport. Is that what you're saying? Kenyans are stupid?
I agree with your first statement. The rest is you preaching your gospel to reinforce your own beliefs. As I just told Coevett, repetition does not make it more persuasive.
"Stupid" and "dumber" are your personal judgements based on limited and inconclusive and biased information.
Kenyans aren't the ones here trying to tell me that someone's "belief" in doping was right or that doping helped their performance. It is posters like you, "inferring" their experience and attempting to palm that off as "knowledge".
Why do you think we have any interest in persuading you? Would be more profitable trying to persuade a Flat Earther that the world is round.
How many times do we need to keep pointing out to you the big names that have been busted, including world record holders, world champions, world junior champions? No matter how many times we do it, you doping apologists will just keep repeating this lie that it's only because Kenya has more runners. Besides, you have so many 'international runners' because you have so many dopers. Only a fool would think that all the 'bad apples' are being caught.
In 2022, 28 Kenyans ran between 26:54.76 (R.Yator) and 27:30.
95%of those Kenyans running low 27:00 were young Kenyan boys aged 18-23, based in Japan, where it is impossible to dope or do anything illegal. Yator 26:54, Kibet 26:55, Kiplagat 27:07, Sawe 27:09, B.Kiplagat 27:09, Masai 27:10, Rono 27:11, Ebenyo 27:11, Ruto 27:11, Kiptum 27:11, Ndiku 27:12, Sitonik 27:14, Mwangi 27:15, Kosimbei 27:15, Mburu 27:19, etc....long list. These are mostly young kids from Kenya, sons of humble Kalenjin farmers (majority) living and racing in Japan. They are all clean as whistles and legit. Impossible to dope in Japan. IMPOSSIBLE.
The point we're making is that the best athletes are clean as whistles and these manga Kenya boys in Japan are direct proof of that.
Top 100 male 10000m runners 2022:
Kenya (born) 53
rest of East Africa 16
rest of the World 31
and many of the top Kenyans prefer the road inststead of the 10000m.
From the top 100 male Marathon runners in 2022, 10 are not East African born - around 3% of the world population produces 90% of the fastest Marathon runners.
This is just not explainable by "doping", impossible.
EPO and blood doping is in use for 30 and ~50 yrs respectively
There's only maybe 3 contrarians arguing against its effectiveness
Jon orange and rekrunner are 2 of them
It's widespread use is evidence of its effectiveness.
Ferrari and Rosa and Hermens(allegedly) are not using a placebo
There are way more than three. The only contributor here with a lifetime of personal experience training elite and world record setting athletes, says that nothing is better than living and training at altitude combined with a strong mentality. If it makes you feel better, say that is because of EPO triggered by altitude.
Here is a PhD researcher who argues that the performance effectiveness of most WADA banned substances, including EPO, are largely mythical:
The list of substances prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is huge. PhD candidate Jules Heuberger looked at many of these, as well as at the methods used to detect them. He concluded that for very few of these s...
He participated in a meta-study analyzing the strength of a collection of blood-doping performance studies dating as far back as 1991.
"Erythropoietin doping in cycling: lack of evidence for efficacy and a negative risk–benefit" Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2013 Jun.;75(6): 1406–1421
Jules A A C Heuberger, Joost M Cohen Tervaert, Femke M L Schepers, Adriaan D B Vliegenthart, Joris I Rotmans, Johannes M A Daniels, Jacobus Burggraaf, and Adam F Cohen
Here's another meta-study arriving at a similar conclusion, not based on an evidentiarly approach, but after conducting a mathematical analysis of the results:
"Overestimated Effect of Epo Administration on Aerobic Exercise Capacity: A Meta-Analysis" American Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, 2013, Vol. 1, No. 2, 17-27
Hein F.M. Lodewijkx,, Bram Brouwer, Harm Kuipers, René van Hezewijk
Sir, Professor Canova has been studying physiology (adapted to track and field) for the past 30-40 years. He is, most likely, one of the best coaches
Of course he's a great coach
But on doping matters he was claiming that nobody in Kenya doped .
That doping indeed slowed them down same as rekrunners claim
Claimed Steroids were the best performance enhancer for cyclists as they strengthened the leg muscles
Among other claims before all the doping came to light when testing was stepped up
I thought Professor Canova suggested that doping had negligible and perhaps no benefits for those Kenyans living and training at high altitudes. Example: Kamworor 26:44 in Eugene and 27:01 in Nairobi, altitude.
Didn't Canova also claim that no athlete from O'Connell's and Sang's group would ever dope? And that Jeptoo doped only once because of her injury? That hasn't aged well either.
But on doping matters he was claiming that nobody in Kenya doped .
That doping indeed slowed them down same as rekrunners claim
Claimed Steroids were the best performance enhancer for cyclists as they strengthened the leg muscles
Among other claims before all the doping came to light when testing was stepped up
I thought Professor Canova suggested that doping had negligible and perhaps no benefits for those Kenyans living and training at high altitudes. Example: Kamworor 26:44 in Eugene and 27:01 in Nairobi, altitude.
But on doping matters he was claiming that nobody in Kenya doped .
That doping indeed slowed them down same as rekrunners claim
Claimed Steroids were the best performance enhancer for cyclists as they strengthened the leg muscles
Among other claims before all the doping came to light when testing was stepped up
I thought Professor Canova suggested that doping had negligible and perhaps no benefits for those Kenyans living and training at high altitudes. Example: Kamworor 26:44 in Eugene and 27:01 in Nairobi, altitude.
Yes I stand corrected on that
Has that claim stood the test of time now with athletes like kipruto busted ?
Didn't Canova also claim that no athlete from O'Connell's and Sang's group would ever dope? And that Jeptoo doped only once because of her injury? That hasn't aged well either.
Sir, I think Canova may have made a couple of factual innacuracies when he was living and training the Chinese National team in China. Not deliberate but rather because of misinformation. Thank you.
Canova was the 3rd and no disrespect intended to a great coach
But on doping matters he had us believe that nobody doped in Kenya until the busts started , he's hardly a font of knowledge on the matter
Who else has superior knowledge and experience regarding elite performance?
A lot of people had themselves believing things they attributed to Renato, that Renato never said. I don't think it's fair to blame Renato for these misunderstandings.
But assuming Renato said it, is it wrong? The increase in Kenyan doping looks like a relatively recent thing, in the last 10-15 years. For example, for all this talk about how effective EPO is (excluding the three contrarians of course), when the Australian scientists reviewed unofficial blood data from 2000-2012, the Sunday Times reported that the rate of Kenyan and Ethiopian blood doping suspicion was below the global average, at a time when Kenyans and Ethiopians were making signficant progress in the marathon, which incidentally was the cleanest event the Sunday Times reported.
Many of Renato's critics misquoted and ridiculed Renato for saying EPO wouldn't benefit East Africans, because East Africans are not exceptional, and it works for East Africans because it works for everyone. This just kicks the can down the road, raising the question -- does it work, or did it ever work for non-Africans? If it did, we should be able to point to all the great non-African achievements in the EPO-era. Yet people keep pointing to historically unremarkable performers like Cathal Lombard as one of the best examples.
Everyone who argues with me seems to agree that non-Africans in the EPO-era generally failed to outperform their 1980s predecessors, and the explanations given were a wide range of personal pet theories about the rising popularity of soccer, or non-Africans already doping to the max before EPO (implicating, without direct evidence, all the best performances from the 1980s), or claiming that the small progress was still progress, all rationalizing why EPO did not bring signficant performances for non-Africans. Some take it a couple steps further, as evidence that only Africans are doping (despite WADA telling us otherwise), or that they are doping in higher quantities, and that non-Africans are generally morally superior, while denying that these claims are racist.
Ultimately, lacking the kind of progress we saw for East Africans, and the kind of universal progress we saw with supershoes, we are left to take it on faith that EPO would work for non-Africans too, if they had also believed in it, or lacked the morals, enough to take it. But bringing it back to EPO working for East Africans too, the similarity with non-Africans was the supposed foundation for assuming it also works on East Africans too.
You said "It's widespread use is evidence of its effectiveness." This is pure nonsense from a logical point of view. First, we should check your assumption: is the use widespread? Most of the busts are not for EPO or ABP, but for other drugs that Lance Armstrong might call "low octane". IAAF blood doping estimates are ~14%, as well as unofficial Sunday Times/Australian database estimates. Second -- use is evidence of belief, not effect. Results are evidence of effect. If you want to say the results were caused by doping, then you need strong evidence of correlation if not causation between doping and elite performance. Where we are today is that if we generate a list of countries sorted by performance, then a second list sorted by known doping, these lists are not remotely similar.
So, is it your conclusion that EPO had absolutely no impact on Lombard's improvement and it was 100% the result of him changing his coach, changing his training, reducing his volume in half, etc?
How about Kiptum? Is it your conclusion that doping had no effect on his HM WR performance at Valencia where on his ABP he recorded a 60% Hct & corresponding OFF-score of 145 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level (less than 1 in 10,000 of being undoped).
How Daniel Wanjiru? (His hearing is now available for review) Would it be your conclusion that doping had no effect on his 3rd place place finish - running a time of 1:01:17, 1 & 2 seconds behind Bashir & Farah - at the 2019 London Big Half where on the eve of the race he recorded a near 60% Hct (19.4 Hgb) & a corresponding OFF-score of 132 - both values exceeding the 99.99% specificity level?
Wanjiru had two experts on his defense team. His main contention was that he descended from altitude in village in Kenya just a few days before the race therefore contending that it affected the Hgb values. One of the anti-doping experts for the IAAF was Dr. Lewis, who has expertise in hematological values of athletes that live & train at high altitude & descend to sea-level for races. She provided excellent expert testimony & really explains the science of this altitude issue.
I cannot draw any conclusions with so many unknowns. Lombard had too many other things to fix. Scientists usually come up with estimates like 40 seconds, or up to 1 minute, or up to 3% -- from small sample studies on even slower amateur runners than Lombard, where training effect wasn't controlled. Based on these differences and shortcomings, these scientific estimates are likely already inflated for these amateur runners, and I would expect any potential benefit to diminish for faster, highly trained, elite runners.
With respect to Kiptum and Wanjiru, taking EPO would be largely superfluous, as they already have gained a signficant aerobic advantage by living and training at altitude. The higher hematocrit might even hinder their performance by reducing blood flow.
Here's Moroccan El Mahjous Dazza's case: (NR holder - marathon/2:05.26)
Moroccan marathon runner El Mahjoub Dazza has been banned by the Athletics Integrity Unit (AIU) for four years after testing positive for a prohibited...
In reading the hearing: Dazza's very first blood draw for his ABP was on May 4 2019 on the eve of the Prague marathon where he won in a time of 2:05.58 beating several Kenyans & Ethiopians (I know - these are probably recreational club-runners that come a dime a dozen. Lol).
His sample was flagged for hematological anomalies at 99.9% specificity (less than 1 in 1000 chance of undoped) for high Hgb (17.4), low RET% (0.32), with a corresponding OFF-score of 140.
His defense team had some contentions including altitude training & a down period of training for a few weeks in April due to injury.
So, I would take it your position wouldn't change that doping had absoluteky no effect on Dazza's winning performance at Prague?
So, in summary we have three cases presented here with top elites resulting in hematological anomalies bans: Kiptum sets the HR WR, Wanjiru finishes 3rd behind Bashir & Farah at the London Half & Dazza who smokes the Prague Marathon running his 2nd fastest time - and all of them just happen have high & exceeding high blood values resulting in 99.99% & 99.9% specificity levels.
Conclusions: Microdoses with intravenous rHuEPO provide a sufficient erythropoietic stimuli to augment tHb and enhance aerobic-dominated performance in both trained males and females.
I was not aware. It doesn't look relevant to the domain of elite running performance of highly trained athletes.
Scientists keep looking at the wrong things on the wrong people.
It "doesn't look relevant" that microdosing improved the performances of trained athletes? Yet if it didn't improve their performances I would expect you to embrace its "relevance". So you know for a fact that microdosing wouldn't have the same or similar effect on trained elites? That's a fine piece of completely unsupported guesswork from one who claims to base his theorizing on "real world experiences". It doesn't meet your persuasions so you simply dismiss it. You are so FOS.
This post was edited 52 seconds after it was posted.
EPO and blood doping is in use for 30 and ~50 yrs respectively
There's only maybe 3 contrarians arguing against its effectiveness
Jon orange and rekrunner are 2 of them
It's widespread use is evidence of its effectiveness.
Ferrari and Rosa and Hermens(allegedly) are not using a placebo
There are way more than three. The only contributor here with a lifetime of personal experience training elite and world record setting athletes, says that nothing is better than living and training at altitude combined with a strong mentality. If it makes you feel better, say that is because of EPO triggered by altitude.
Here is a PhD researcher who argues that the performance effectiveness of most WADA banned substances, including EPO, are largely mythical:
He participated in a meta-study analyzing the strength of a collection of blood-doping performance studies dating as far back as 1991.
"Erythropoietin doping in cycling: lack of evidence for efficacy and a negative risk–benefit" Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2013 Jun.;75(6): 1406–1421
Jules A A C Heuberger, Joost M Cohen Tervaert, Femke M L Schepers, Adriaan D B Vliegenthart, Joris I Rotmans, Johannes M A Daniels, Jacobus Burggraaf, and Adam F Cohen
Here's another meta-study arriving at a similar conclusion, not based on an evidentiarly approach, but after conducting a mathematical analysis of the results:
"Overestimated Effect of Epo Administration on Aerobic Exercise Capacity: A Meta-Analysis" American Journal of Sports Science and Medicine, 2013, Vol. 1, No. 2, 17-27
Hein F.M. Lodewijkx,, Bram Brouwer, Harm Kuipers, René van Hezewijk
This review critically evaluates the magnitude of performance enhancement that can be expected from various autologous blood transfusion (ABT) procedures and the underlying physiological mechanisms. The review is based on a s...
I was not aware. It doesn't look relevant to the domain of elite running performance of highly trained athletes.
Scientists keep looking at the wrong things on the wrong people.
It "doesn't look relevant" that microdosing improved the performances of trained athletes? Yet if it didn't improve their performances I would expect you to embrace its "relevance". So you know for a fact that microdosing wouldn't have the same or similar effect on trained elites? That's a fine piece of completely unsupported guesswork from one who claims to base his theorizing on "real world experiences". It doesn't meet your persuasions so you simply dismiss it. You are so FOS.
Another foul insult from the 20,000 troll poster.
Armstrong never reads anything that he is directed to read.
