Tinman Base Training Tips

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

tin can man wrote:

I found this part from the powerpoint amusing: "Note: The last two races were run 3-hours apart in the same track

meet. *Drew was instructed to run the 3200m @ 5,000m race effort,

which he did; it was not all-out."

Tinman is claiming Hunter hit 8:43 in the 3200 as a tempo run. Tinman is so full of s**t. He loves to brag about his coaching, he called Drew Hunter an average athlete with great coaching. He's a snakeoil salesman.

No. He is calling 8:43 3200m as what it was - a 3200m race at 5000m race effort. At his high level, the difference between 3k and 5k pace is not that great (in absolute terms).

He never said Hunter is average, in fact he often called him talented. He said that each year, there are 10-20+ Hunter's out there in the US, but they are either not found and making it into T&F or they are not being coached properly.

If there is ONE thing, Tinman is good at it's developing training plans. Guy has studied this for 40+ years, and always references Lydiard, Bowerman, and 23432 other old-school coaches that pushed the training methods forward.

His system is proven and works. Success will always attract haters, weather it's a successful running YouTuber, successful HS sensation like Mary Cain, Efraimson or Lane or a successful coach.

Working Stiff wrote:

- For the period of time I was coached by Tom I felt more burnt out than I ever had before or since. I did more specific work earlier than I ever have. Also, he had me to 12 x 20 seconds at mile effort with only 40 seconds rest the day before each workout for 24 weeks straight. That's not easy and when you do it twice a week the day before every other workout, it takes a lot out of you.

Here's 2 weeks of workouts a full 6 weeks before my key race exactly as written:

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 3-mile Tempo Run (jog 3 minutes) + 6 x 800m @ 5k speed (jog 300m recoveries)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 5-mile Tempo Run, jog 5 minutes and then run 5 x 15 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 45 seconds between reps)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 5 x 1 mile @ Threshold (jog 1 minute between/after reps) + 5 x 30 second hills @ 1 mile race speed/effort & rhythm (jog 60 seconds between reps) + 5 x 30 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 90 seconds between reps)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 3 mile Tempo Run (jog 4 minutes) + 5 x 1000m @ 5k speed (jog 400m recoveries)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

This was after 6 weeks of at least 1 5K specific workout each week starting with (3 mile tempo + 14 x 1 minutes @3K effort with 30 seconds jog) and, like I said, I still had 6 weeks to my key race after this. I was toast and I feel lucky not to have been injured. I think you said "he doesn't prescribe a lot of VO2 sessions". It all ended up resulting in a 10 second 5K PR. I have since run a full minute faster on slightly higher mileage and occasional strictly speed focused workouts in place of constant strength based stuff.

Seriously, every single workout under Tom was hard. However moderate it looks on paper, doing 20 to 30 minutes of CV or LT paced work followed by hills, followed by speed takes a lot out of you, especially when you do it twice a week and it's always preceded by that 12 x 20 seconds workout the day before.

- I have seen Loudon Valley HS training. It is much less intense than standard Tinman stuff. Most of the year there is only 1 workout per week. That workout is usually the one shown on the workout Wednesday video that is out there. But occasionally that workout is only hill reps. They only start doing 2 workouts per week for the last 6-8 weeks of the season. They also do pure sprinting very often starting in base phase. Only easy running and strides for 4-6 weeks between seasons too.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Working Stiff wrote:

- For the period of time I was coached by Tom I felt more burnt out than I ever had before or since. I did more specific work earlier than I ever have. Also, he had me to 12 x 20 seconds at mile effort with only 40 seconds rest the day before each workout for 24 weeks straight. That's not easy and when you do it twice a week the day before every other workout, it takes a lot out of you.

Here's 2 weeks of workouts a full 6 weeks before my key race exactly as written:

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 3-mile Tempo Run (jog 3 minutes) + 6 x 800m @ 5k speed (jog 300m recoveries)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 5-mile Tempo Run, jog 5 minutes and then run 5 x 15 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 45 seconds between reps)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

M - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

T - 5 x 1 mile @ Threshold (jog 1 minute between/after reps) + 5 x 30 second hills @ 1 mile race speed/effort & rhythm (jog 60 seconds between reps) + 5 x 30 seconds @ 800m speed (jog 90 seconds between reps)

W - 60 minutes easy

Th - 60 minutes with 12 x 20 seconds @mile effort with 40 seconds jog in the middle

F - 3 mile Tempo Run (jog 4 minutes) + 5 x 1000m @ 5k speed (jog 400m recoveries)

S - 60 minutes easy

Su - 90 minutes over hilly terrain

This was after 6 weeks of at least 1 5K specific workout each week starting with (3 mile tempo + 14 x 1 minutes @3K effort with 30 seconds jog) and, like I said, I still had 6 weeks to my key race after this. I was toast and I feel lucky not to have been injured. I think you said "he doesn't prescribe a lot of VO2 sessions". It all ended up resulting in a 10 second 5K PR. I have since run a full minute faster on slightly higher mileage and occasional strictly speed focused workouts in place of constant strength based stuff.

Seriously, every single workout under Tom was hard. However moderate it looks on paper, doing 20 to 30 minutes of CV or LT paced work followed by hills, followed by speed takes a lot out of you, especially when you do it twice a week and it's always preceded by that 12 x 20 seconds workout the day before.

- I have seen Loudon Valley HS training. It is much less intense than standard Tinman stuff. Most of the year there is only 1 workout per week. That workout is usually the one shown on the workout Wednesday video that is out there. But occasionally that workout is only hill reps. They only start doing 2 workouts per week for the last 6-8 weeks of the season. They also do pure sprinting very often starting in base phase. Only easy running and strides for 4-6 weeks between seasons too.

This is a good post, apart from the personal insults you are often doing (for no reason), so I'll answer it.

The training looks like something Tinman would prescribe, so it's without a question that you were coached by him. He increases the pressure to a runner 6 weeks before a peak competition (and then tapers the last 2 weeks), so the two weeks you were listing were right on that "higher pressure" phase. The 6-12 weeks before that would be more moderate and contain more work at CV and less at VO2MAX/5k pace.

Why did it not work that well? Because you did it wrong. I've done the same thing. I thought I'm doing Tinman training, but was overestimating my paces and not getting the point of sessions so I ended up doing Tinman training without doing Tinman training.

The 10-12x20s on, 40s off is a staple on pre-workout days in Tinman's program. Last year I did them way too fast, around 400-800m effort or sprint speed. It was visible when the jog recovery in the 40s off went down to 11 min miles. After looking how the elites are doing it, it can be seen that the 40s recovery is just as fast / if not faster than the average easy pace, so the 20s on should be fast, relaxed running but without any straining or forcing the pace. If it's done that way, zero recovery will be needed and you will feel better afterwards and for the workout the next day. Shooting for a PR mile pace set on a track in peak mile shape when doing the strides on soft surface somewhere in the middle of a high-mileage training week is probably too fast, running them by effort and making sure it's relaxed is the right way.

The hill reps / strides at the end of a workout should also never make you feel bad. It's easy to do them too fast, or force a pace. The difference between mile-3k pace, and 400-800m pace becomes quite significant. Doing these workouts throughout a season will not just improve your leg strength / stride power, but also give you an enormous kick at the end of races since you are used to running fast when tired.

The CV / threshold / 5k paced stuff is often done wrong. We tend to overestimate our paces in training, and do them WAY too hard. You were a young (in terms of training age), ambitious runner who wanted to improve quickly and set big PRs in races. I was the same. All my tempo runs, CV workouts, 3k/5k stuff, etc were done too fast, and that's how Tinman training misses the point and becomes dangerous. If we run all at the right paces (and not PR/peak shape pace), the training leads to long-term improvement. Anything too fast, and you only improve short-term and might wrongly improve your lactate tolerance at the cost of stamina and endurance.

We all tend to be experts when following a training program and think we do it 100% right, and if it fails to give us the right/expected results we blame the coach/training program. But mostly, it was just people doing Tinman training wrong, running at wrong paces and missing the stimulus. The same reason got the elite injured, because the 1-2 years before this one Tinman lived somewhere completely different and the guys were on their own, often running way too fast. Since Tinman moved to Boulder, and is observing workouts, injury rate went down a lot and great things are expected to happen in the future.

That's also why LV is doing well - they don't just "do" or "copy" Tinman training, the coaches know exactly how it should feel like (Tinman trained Drew's mum himself) and make sure the kids run at the right paces, leading to long-term improvement regardless of the individual talent level.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This is a good post, apart from the personal insults you are often doing (for no reason), so I'll answer it.

The training looks like something Tinman would prescribe, so it's without a question that you were coached by him. He increases the pressure to a runner 6 weeks before a peak competition (and then tapers the last 2 weeks), so the two weeks you were listing were right on that "higher pressure" phase. The 6-12 weeks before that would be more moderate and contain more work at CV and less at VO2MAX/5k pace.

Why did it not work that well? Because you did it wrong. I've done the same thing. I thought I'm doing Tinman training, but was overestimating my paces and not getting the point of sessions so I ended up doing Tinman training without doing Tinman training.

The 10-12x20s on, 40s off is a staple on pre-workout days in Tinman's program. Last year I did them way too fast, around 400-800m effort or sprint speed. It was visible when the jog recovery in the 40s off went down to 11 min miles. After looking how the elites are doing it, it can be seen that the 40s recovery is just as fast / if not faster than the average easy pace, so the 20s on should be fast, relaxed running but without any straining or forcing the pace. If it's done that way, zero recovery will be needed and you will feel better afterwards and for the workout the next day. Shooting for a PR mile pace set on a track in peak mile shape when doing the strides on soft surface somewhere in the middle of a high-mileage training week is probably too fast, running them by effort and making sure it's relaxed is the right way.

The hill reps / strides at the end of a workout should also never make you feel bad. It's easy to do them too fast, or force a pace. The difference between mile-3k pace, and 400-800m pace becomes quite significant. Doing these workouts throughout a season will not just improve your leg strength / stride power, but also give you an enormous kick at the end of races since you are used to running fast when tired.

The CV / threshold / 5k paced stuff is often done wrong. We tend to overestimate our paces in training, and do them WAY too hard. You were a young (in terms of training age), ambitious runner who wanted to improve quickly and set big PRs in races. I was the same. All my tempo runs, CV workouts, 3k/5k stuff, etc were done too fast, and that's how Tinman training misses the point and becomes dangerous. If we run all at the right paces (and not PR/peak shape pace), the training leads to long-term improvement. Anything too fast, and you only improve short-term and might wrongly improve your lactate tolerance at the cost of stamina and endurance.

We all tend to be experts when following a training program and think we do it 100% right, and if it fails to give us the right/expected results we blame the coach/training program. But mostly, it was just people doing Tinman training wrong, running at wrong paces and missing the stimulus. The same reason got the elite injured, because the 1-2 years before this one Tinman lived somewhere completely different and the guys were on their own, often running way too fast. Since Tinman moved to Boulder, and is observing workouts, injury rate went down a lot and great things are expected to happen in the future.

That's also why LV is doing well - they don't just "do" or "copy" Tinman training, the coaches know exactly how it should feel like (Tinman trained Drew's mum himself) and make sure the kids run at the right paces, leading to long-term improvement regardless of the individual talent level.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This is a good post, apart from the personal insults you are often doing (for no reason), so I'll answer it.

The training looks like something Tinman would prescribe, so it's without a question that you were coached by him. He increases the pressure to a runner 6 weeks before a peak competition (and then tapers the last 2 weeks), so the two weeks you were listing were right on that "higher pressure" phase. The 6-12 weeks before that would be more moderate and contain more work at CV and less at VO2MAX/5k pace.

Why did it not work that well? Because you did it wrong. I've done the same thing. I thought I'm doing Tinman training, but was overestimating my paces and not getting the point of sessions so I ended up doing Tinman training without doing Tinman training.

The 10-12x20s on, 40s off is a staple on pre-workout days in Tinman's program. Last year I did them way too fast, around 400-800m effort or sprint speed. It was visible when the jog recovery in the 40s off went down to 11 min miles. After looking how the elites are doing it, it can be seen that the 40s recovery is just as fast / if not faster than the average easy pace, so the 20s on should be fast, relaxed running but without any straining or forcing the pace. If it's done that way, zero recovery will be needed and you will feel better afterwards and for the workout the next day. Shooting for a PR mile pace set on a track in peak mile shape when doing the strides on soft surface somewhere in the middle of a high-mileage training week is probably too fast, running them by effort and making sure it's relaxed is the right way.

The hill reps / strides at the end of a workout should also never make you feel bad. It's easy to do them too fast, or force a pace. The difference between mile-3k pace, and 400-800m pace becomes quite significant. Doing these workouts throughout a season will not just improve your leg strength / stride power, but also give you an enormous kick at the end of races since you are used to running fast when tired.

The CV / threshold / 5k paced stuff is often done wrong. We tend to overestimate our paces in training, and do them WAY too hard. You were a young (in terms of training age), ambitious runner who wanted to improve quickly and set big PRs in races. I was the same. All my tempo runs, CV workouts, 3k/5k stuff, etc were done too fast, and that's how Tinman training misses the point and becomes dangerous. If we run all at the right paces (and not PR/peak shape pace), the training leads to long-term improvement. Anything too fast, and you only improve short-term and might wrongly improve your lactate tolerance at the cost of stamina and endurance.

We all tend to be experts when following a training program and think we do it 100% right, and if it fails to give us the right/expected results we blame the coach/training program. But mostly, it was just people doing Tinman training wrong, running at wrong paces and missing the stimulus. The same reason got the elite injured, because the 1-2 years before this one Tinman lived somewhere completely different and the guys were on their own, often running way too fast. Since Tinman moved to Boulder, and is observing workouts, injury rate went down a lot and great things are expected to happen in the future.

That's also why LV is doing well - they don't just "do" or "copy" Tinman training, the coaches know exactly how it should feel like (Tinman trained Drew's mum himself) and make sure the kids run at the right paces, leading to long-term improvement regardless of the individual talent level.

agreed wrote:

lol a good training plan is supposed to work without having to tweak it a ton and reinterpret every single workout. If I use Tinman's calculator to calculate my paces and apply them to this training I get some absurdly hard workouts. Even if I put a slower PR they're unreasonably hard. His calculator should take the difference between peak fitness and everyday fitness into account if that's important to his executing training plans.

Also, 4 workouts a week is too much. (that 12*20s/40s @ mile effort is a decent workout, 4 minutes of work at mile effort with low rest is a non negligible workout) Also, the "real" workouts are still too hard - a 3 mile tempo plus 5x1km is 2 workouts sandwiched together, same for the 5*mile reps with 5*30s at mile and 5*30s at 800 effort, even if you run them conservatively.

I guess this proves that online coaching isn't ideal and it isn't the philosophy that makes the runner, but rather the individualised follow up and adaptations to the training plan. This shows the flaws of the Tinman online training system as well as his workout plans.