put another way...Rhines is a model. She is perfect. She was good in HS, she was good in college, she chose a program that let her be healthy, she was good as a pro. She had the confidence to stand up for herself.
Clearly there are many athletes who don't have that kind of confidence and willpower and talent. Those are the people Cain and Fleshman want to help.
compreezy wrote:
Ernest wrote:
The parts I read were cogent and coherent.
Big ups to Rhines for telling it like it is.
Timing of this blog certainly reflects back to Cain, though she isn't mentioned.
The gist of the article seems to affirm what others are saying; Cain is "deflecting".
Instead of Cain owning her issues (and failures/successes), she chose to blame Salazar/NOP, knowing claims of victimization directed thataway were likely receive maximum attention/support and minimum scrutiny.
If that is your takeaway of what Rhines' intent was then your educators failed you.
I agree.
And malmo's take on the Uncle Tom analogy was very good. So I agree with malmo, maybe between 66% and 86% of the time.
Typical LR troll, anonymous cheap shots with nothing to back it up. If this is your take on civil and informed discussion, your Mama failed you. Cain says her (e.g. weight) issues are due to irrelevant or undue pressure from NOP/Salazar, and her self-esteem/self-harm issues which flowed from that, by extension, are their "fault" also. Rhines says weight is just part of the game; like every other metric with regard to training and performance in distance running, numbers are just "information", variable feedback best managed dispassionately.
compreezy wrote:
Ernest wrote:
The parts I read were cogent and coherent.
Big ups to Rhines for telling it like it is.
Timing of this blog certainly reflects back to Cain, though she isn't mentioned.
The gist of the article seems to affirm what others are saying; Cain is "deflecting".
Instead of Cain owning her issues (and failures/successes), she chose to blame Salazar/NOP, knowing claims of victimization directed thataway were likely receive maximum attention/support and minimum scrutiny.
If that is your takeaway of what Rhines' intent was then your educators failed you.
The Angel of Death wrote:
I think she's kind of missing the point that is floating in the current conversation. Nobody is arguing that weight is a factor (even acknowledged by Mary Cain when she came out with her story), but how it's obsession and over emphasis can be self defeating. Couple that with abuse from coaches, it can be downright DESTRUCTIVE and result in harm.
There's a difference between cutting out junk food/establishing healthy eating and nutrition habits than seeking to minimize all fat before one reaches a breaking point both physically and mentally (as Salazar seemed obsessed with), including the off label use of prescription drugs and banned methods of drug/supplement administration, and mental abuse. Jen Rhines was fortunate to have been in an environment insulated from negative influences that create the environment for weight/eating issues, but her situation was/is not ubiquitous and she glosses over the fact and thus misses the point to the larger conversation.
Maybe it is ok for an athlete to recount their personal experience in a factual manner that is not 100% similar to the experiences had by Mary Cain and those in NOP. Maybe Jen wanted to present with some of the rhetoric going on that not every runner has the same experiences. It is ok for someone to present their experiences in the sport of running in a way that does not present a toxic obsession about weight in running as an overbearing problem in the sport where everyone female is being body shamed.
I will also say in my personal view every runner faces challenges throughout the course of their career, some worse than others. I doubt Jen's only career issue is that she partied to much as freshman, was out of shape and had to re-evaluate her priorities. What everyone does have is a choice in how they respond to these issues and how you respond and the choices you make do impact whether they become a small, medium, or large problem. It is fair to say if you put two different people in the same who handle it differently there will be a different result. That is not to take away from challange Mary Cain or others were put in at NOP or say they should have done something different.
But the people saying Jen was in a much better place and had better support ........ thus she had a positive career experience are naive. I've seen plenty of runners who you could put in the perfect situation and still an absolute trainwreck occurs. Some people do bring the drama or toxicity with them.
In no way is Rhines making a point that “Cain is deflecting” blame. Your educators failed you.
The Angel of Death wrote:
I think she's kind of missing the point that is floating in the current conversation. Nobody is arguing that weight is a factor (even acknowledged by Mary Cain when she came out with her story), but how it's obsession and over emphasis can be self defeating. Couple that with abuse from coaches, it can be downright DESTRUCTIVE and result in harm.
There's a difference between cutting out junk food/establishing healthy eating and nutrition habits than seeking to minimize all fat before one reaches a breaking point both physically and mentally (as Salazar seemed obsessed with), including the off label use of prescription drugs and banned methods of drug/supplement administration, and mental abuse. Jen Rhines was fortunate to have been in an environment insulated from negative influences that create the environment for weight/eating issues, but her situation was/is not ubiquitous and she glosses over the fact and thus misses the point to the larger conversation.
You missed the point.
Mary Cain was abused by a monster and all of the attention whores jumped on the bandwagon.
Jen pointed out that this is a minority view and there is a whole world out there with different experiences
Big fan of J.R. Also a huge fan of her husband. They engineered fantastic careers. I wished she had touched on some of her experiences with Marty Stern as a coach.
Stern vs. Centro vs. Mahon. Seems like she had a range of coaching experiences.
I think she nailed it. Great well rounded philosophy to training and living. I was reminded of that scene from Chariots of Fire where they try to convince Eric Liddell to run on Sunday and he won't so they make a compromise. Two guys are talking about Liddell afterwards and one says,
"...Well, the lad, as you call him...
...is a true man of principle,
and a true athlete.
His speed is a mere extension
of his life, its force.
We sought to sever
his running from himself."
I sort of think that's what Jen is saying here...it's more than just one factor and running is just an extension of who a person is but it doesn't have to define them so much that they break down emotionally over one aspect of it...
Jen Rhines. The Anti-Snowflake.
A little compassion is good but where is the own responsibility?
In Mary Cain's case that would have been at first her parents and later herself.
Salazar was a hardass on himself. He almost trained himself to death. And that was well known. So what did they expect?
Did she ever consider that if she trained harder, like hard enough to lose her menstrual cycle, she might just be relevant enough for people to care what she says or for that matter, know who the F she is?
Outsider262 wrote:
Great post but she’s not bashing Salazar or Nike.
Funny how ( Nike haters, Goucher, Magness etc) only endorse and support posts that bash Nike or AlSal lol, in my opinion makes them look like hypocrites. Goes to show you if they really care about Cain or it’s just another chance to “take down” Nike lol
+1
Besides personality differences, there are also generational differences here. And yes, these are generalizations, and individual experiences will vary, but you can't deny the trends.
Rhines is a Gen Xer. Over-parenting and snowplow parenting was much less common then. Kids were expected to take care of themselves more. Kids today have fewer opportunities to learn to be responsible and to learn to solve problems for themselves because the parenting trend is to insert yourself into every facet of your kid's life.
I'm not saying any of that excuses Salazar from being awful, because it doesn't. He's been awful for a long time and I'm sure he will continue to be awful. I'm just pointing out that expectations for high school athletes are getting higher at the same time that the kids are less prepared to take care of themselves.
I don’t know if I totally believe that’s her truth....sorry I like Jen Rhines but I have a difficult time to believe that she never had concern with weight. It doesn’t sit right. I think sometimes you have to lean into these hard topics and accept/acknowledge and bring it out on the table. What I’m hearing her say is weight should be viewed at face value...and while that’s all fine and dandy your not going to change the emotional ties that there are and can be with a persons weight and the ridicule they may feel being weighed in front of peers.
Just askin' wrote:
Did she ever consider that if she trained harder, like hard enough to lose her menstrual cycle, she might just be relevant enough for people to care what she says or for that matter, know who the F she is?
Jen Rhines vs Mary Cain:
3 Olympics vs 0 Olympics: advantage Jen Rhines
Jen Rhines PRs:
1500m: 4:09
5000m: 14:54
10,000m: 31:17
Maybe you are about 20 years old there "Just askin'" and don't know too much about the sport. Give it time, you'll catch up a bit eventually.
Just askin' wrote:
Did she ever consider that if she trained harder, like hard enough to lose her menstrual cycle, she might just be relevant enough for people to care what she says or for that matter, know who the F she is?
Did you ever consider that if you didnt post bull$ht like this anonymously, people might not hink you were such an a$$hole??
I often wonder if the reason that weight is the metric of focus is because it is easy to measure. Anyone can say "get on a scale and get the number lower". It reminds me of the managers who are concerned about what time people make it to the office versus what they are accomplishing on the job. It's much easier to watch when people come and go than it is to measure productivity.
Rhines points out that weight is just one factor involved in optimum performance. But it takes knowledgeable, motivated coaches to figure out how to use these.
another perspective wrote:
Just askin' wrote:
Did she ever consider that if she trained harder, like hard enough to lose her menstrual cycle, she might just be relevant enough for people to care what she says or for that matter, know who the F she is?
Jen Rhines vs Mary Cain:
3 Olympics vs 0 Olympics: advantage Jen Rhines
Jen Rhines PRs:
1500m: 4:09
5000m: 14:54
10,000m: 31:17
Maybe you are about 20 years old there "Just askin'" and don't know too much about the sport. Give it time, you'll catch up a bit eventually.
A 4:09 1500 is a joke BTW, Cain has a 4:04, but I digress.
“I was a professional athlete for over 20 years, and I have never missed a menstrual cycle." What a joke! Ask someone that is truly at the top of their game if they have ever had menstrual issues. Ask Sifan Hassan, Koko. Ask Laura Muir, Shelby if they have ever had an issue. Don't think the Ethiopians have this issue; Ask Dibaba or Ayana. Who cares what a 4:09 1500 runner says. If she ever got to 3:55, I might care and I guarantee she would not be saying that she has never missed a menstrual cycle.
You are all delusional and living in a fantasy world.
Just askin' wrote:
another perspective wrote:
Jen Rhines vs Mary Cain:
3 Olympics vs 0 Olympics: advantage Jen Rhines
Jen Rhines PRs:
1500m: 4:09
5000m: 14:54
10,000m: 31:17
Maybe you are about 20 years old there "Just askin'" and don't know too much about the sport. Give it time, you'll catch up a bit eventually.
A 4:09 1500 is a joke BTW, Cain has a 4:04, but I digress.
“I was a professional athlete for over 20 years, and I have never missed a menstrual cycle." What a joke! Ask someone that is truly at the top of their game if they have ever had menstrual issues. Ask Sifan Hassan, Koko. Ask Laura Muir, Shelby if they have ever had an issue. Don't think the Ethiopians have this issue; Ask Dibaba or Ayana. Who cares what a 4:09 1500 runner says. If she ever got to 3:55, I might care and I guarantee she would not be saying that she has never missed a menstrual cycle.
You are all delusional and living in a fantasy world.
So because you think her weakest PR listed is a joke you're discounting her. Her longer PR's were much stronger than her 1500. She's a 3 time Olympian. I'm sure you hold yourself to the same standard.