Women's Swimming is the only endurance sport where you get old at an extremely young age.

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6 years ago 07/22/2019 7:25am EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

I swam in high school. I wasn't even particularly good, but our varsity team doubled 2x a day 5x a week for 2 hours, plus a practice on Saturday and an hour of dryland. JV doubled 3x a week. That's 19-23 hours per week of training volume. Most kids had been training at that level since they were ~10, some earlier.

Because swimming is a low impact sport, you can train at extremely high volumes from a younger age than running. These days I'm a very recreational marathoner, but even running 70 mpw, I'm not even spending half the amount of time I spent in the pool growing up.

Also, just because it's not high impact doesn't mean this is always great to train like that at a young age. There's a huge level of burnout with the sport. Also it was extremely common for us to have overtraining like symptoms, such as losing our periods (even at way higher BMIs than most endurance sports), getting sick all the time, and never getting enough sleep because you had to wake up every day and get in the pool by 5:30 am after staying up all night doing homework.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 7:42am EDT

re: Swim dad 2

Swim dad 2 wrote:
Swim dad wrote:
Yeah, there has to be something to this.
My kid just started competitive swimming over the summer. He was training twice a day and racing at B meets once a week.
He is 5.
We let him do it because he seems to enjoy but I am fairly certian he will be bored or burnt out in a few years.
If you are good enough to qualify for the Olympics then I guess you keep on going but I can’t imagine it is sometime you will be doing for life.
Im shocked by the number of kids who will never be elite or even scholarship swimmers, that train like Olympians. Grinding day in, day out. What a waste of time, $$, opportunity to do other things..
My kid is a decent swimmer. 3-4 hours a week training. Would doubling that lead to improvement? Sure. Enough to justify it? No way.

This 100%

And not just swimming.

Overkill and religious seriousness also takes the fun and the spirit out of sport. Also way too much adult involvement and extreme structure.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 8:09am EDT

re: Swim dad

Swim dad wrote:
moanswers wrote:
Could it also be that because great swimmers started when they were < 6 years old, that they peaked 10 years after they started?
Yeah, there has to be something to this.
My kid just started competitive swimming over the summer. He was training twice a day and racing at B meets once a week.
He is 5.
We let him do it because he seems to enjoy but I am fairly certian he will be bored or burnt out in a few years.
If you are good enough to qualify for the Olympics then I guess you keep on going but I can’t imagine it is sometime you will be doing for life.

But burn out rarely happens with men compared to women, and they hold on to their peak way longer than women, which is why phelps was so dominant for a long time. Men gain more muscle and testosterone when they hit puberty or in the late stages of puberty, where as women start to lose their muscle mass and develop more estrogen. We often see this in track and field as well with young female runners. Once puberty really hits, their body starts to change, and they lose speed and put on weight. This is why it is very hard for women to maintain their athletic fitness compared to a man.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 11:02am EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

as has been noted, most elite swimmers have been swimming since they were little kids. youth running is not nearly as developed, thankfully, and that combined with the fact peak bone density correlates with maximal running performance is likely why female swimmers tend to peak or burnout earlier.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 11:27am EDT

re: Bad Wigins

Bad Wigins wrote:
I don't believe older runners lose vo2max, except the ones that get heavier. I don't even believe vo2max is a useful concept.
the main point is that it's not just flexibility that track runners lose, it's body structure. The constant left turns result in increasing asymmetry, and eventually that starts killing performance.
someone posted a video of a woman masters runner in her 60's a while back who broke a record. Both her feet pointed left.

I wondered if I was alone with this opinion. I have brought this up to non-athlete general practitioner doctors. They give my opinion on torque and twisting of left turns no merit. I have brought this up to running doctors who were never track athletes. You know, the guys on letsrun who do three or four a year 10 x 800m at Marathon pace. They do not give this much thought. I am sure 200m, 400m & 400mH athletes suffer these symptoms worse than anyone.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 11:36am EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

This thread might set a record for percentage of OP comments.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 12:39pm EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

You started watching swimming videos after touching yourself to gwen jorgenson vlogs didn't you

6 years ago 07/22/2019 1:04pm EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

Scorpion_runner wrote:
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
That's not true. In fact, only very long distances - half/marathons, triathlons, or cycling benefit older athletes. VO2MAX decreases after early 20s. That's why most elite runners PR in the 5k when they are 18-23 years old, and I assume the decline in VO2MAX also effects swimming.
Here a list of the fastest 5k times and the age in brackets at which they ran it:
1. Kenenisa Bekele (22) ETH 12:37.35
2. Haile Gebrselassie (25.2) ETH 12:39.36
3. Daniel Komen (21.3) KEN 12:39.74
4. Selemon BAREGA (18.5) 12:43.02
5. Hagos GEBRHIWET (24.3) 12:45.82
4. Eliud Kipchoge (19.7) KEN 12:46.53
5. Yomif KEJELCHA (21.0) ETH 12:46.79
6. Dejen GEBREMESKEL (22.7) ETH 12:46.81
7. Sileshi Sihine (21.4) ETH 12:47.04
8. Isiah Kiplangat KOECH (18.5) KEN 12:48.64
9. Issac Songok (22.3) KEN 12:48.66
10. Yenew ALAMIREW (22.1) ETH 12:48.77
11. Saif Saaeed SHAHEEN (20.7) KEN 12:48.81
Lagat, ran 12:53 at 26 years old, which is already quite impressive. But he always did low mileage and focused on the 1500, so it's likely he just wasn't at his peak when he was younger, and could have run even faster.
Some, like El G peaked even later, at 28 years, but they also never focused on the 5k when they were young. He could have run faster than his 12:50 had he focused on the 5k many years earlier.
Wrong. It's hormonal. Woman put on more fat in late puberty, which affects swimming. They lose lean muscle mass.
"Another explanation for the different age ranges associated with peak freestyle swim speed between women and men could include anthropometry and body fat as an important predictor variables for swimming performance.16,24–28 Female swimmers have significantly more adipose tissue than male swimmers.24,26,28 Siders et al26 reported that measurements of body composition such as body fat and body mass may be predictors of swimming performance in women, but not in men. Tuuri et al27 showed that greater fat mass in female swimmers was more strongly related to lower levels of exercise. While the swimmers achieved their peak freestyle swim speed at approximately 20 years of age, specific changes in body composition during that age period might be of importance. Therefore, the difference in the age of peak freestyle swim speed between genders might be explained by body fat and its changes during maturation.29–31 Bitar et al29 showed that, during the onset of puberty, boys and girls gained fat-free mass, whereas fat mass gain was higher in girls than in boys. Lean body mass, which primarily reflects muscle mass, begins to increase during early puberty in both boys and girls. Fat mass, however, increases during the late stages of puberty in girls.30 Further increases in fat mass after puberty may impair swim performance in women. An important finding was reported by Stager et al.31 These authors showed that the mean age at menarche in swimmers was significantly later than in controls (ie, 13.4 years and 13 years, respectively). A later menarche means that puberty, as well as its associated increase in fat mass, will also be delayed. Stager et al31 assumed that the later menarche observed in swimmers appeared to be associated with factors that contribute to a superior performance. Zuniga et al28 showed that male and female sprint swimmers at approximately 11 years of age exhibited different percentages of body fat (boys 9.4% ± 5.4% of body fat; girls 12.7% ± 6.2% of body fat, respectively), and suggested that swimming performance for girls may be improved through training programs designed to reduce body fat."

Unlike running, fat helps swimmers.. it floats. So that is not the reason. I agree with others here who say it's mental burn out. The ability to turn up adrenals is better in men due to higher testosterone. Swimmers train more hours than runners because there is less impact on the body, so muscular recovery is quicker

6 years ago 07/22/2019 1:10pm EDT

re: LateRunnerPhil

LateRunnerPhil wrote:
That's not true. In fact, only very long distances - half/marathons, triathlons, or cycling benefit older athletes. VO2MAX decreases after early 20s. That's why most elite runners PR in the 5k when they are 18-23 years old, and I assume the decline in VO2MAX also effects swimming.
Here a list of the fastest 5k times and the age in brackets at which they ran it:
1. Kenenisa Bekele (22) ETH 12:37.35
2. Haile Gebrselassie (25.2) ETH 12:39.36
3. Daniel Komen (21.3) KEN 12:39.74
4. Selemon BAREGA (18.5) 12:43.02
5. Hagos GEBRHIWET (24.3) 12:45.82
4. Eliud Kipchoge (19.7) KEN 12:46.53
5. Yomif KEJELCHA (21.0) ETH 12:46.79
6. Dejen GEBREMESKEL (22.7) ETH 12:46.81
7. Sileshi Sihine (21.4) ETH 12:47.04
8. Isiah Kiplangat KOECH (18.5) KEN 12:48.64
9. Issac Songok (22.3) KEN 12:48.66
10. Yenew ALAMIREW (22.1) ETH 12:48.77
11. Saif Saaeed SHAHEEN (20.7) KEN 12:48.81
Lagat, ran 12:53 at 26 years old, which is already quite impressive. But he always did low mileage and focused on the 1500, so it's likely he just wasn't at his peak when he was younger, and could have run even faster.
Some, like El G peaked even later, at 28 years, but they also never focused on the 5k when they were young. He could have run faster than his 12:50 had he focused on the 5k many years earlier.

Letsrun: The only place where 26-yr-old BYU runners are cheating, and everyone else over the age of 22 has hit their absolute peak.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 1:45pm EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

Scorpion_runner wrote:
By the time swimmers are 22, they are considered to be almost ancient, because there is always some 16 -18 year old to come out of nowhere to blow you away. Is that due to the hormonal and growth changes of a woman's body as she ages, which comes on rapidly compared to a man's body?
At the age of 16, Katie blew away the swimming world. Now at the age of 22, there is an 18 year old Aussie who is starting to mow her down.
Swimming requires a lot of flexibility, and a woman loses a lot of here flexibility as soon as she turns 20 compared to her teen years. This is why gymnasts have an even shorter shelf life of competing at a high level: 14-18. After 18 they are considered to be grandmothers. Biles was 18 in the last Olympics, so I'm sure there will be some, young flexible gymnast to take over in 2020 olympics.

Ever heard of gymnastics?

6 years ago 07/22/2019 2:10pm EDT

re: Mikeh33

Mikeh33 wrote:
Missy Franklin was badly overtrained and overstressed, I suspect, causing her physical breakdown. Nothing to do with her getting old.

Following is my opinion:

Melissa Franklin was, and probably still is, an emotionally-stunted basket case. She did well when she was a kid who was just having fun, having had no idea about what it meant to people what she was doing.

When some realizations began to happen, she mentally folded like a cheap lawn chair. Her mental inability caused her to become physically unfit, irregular, haphazard, and inconsistent. She was so good that she could have experienced normal diminution and still been competitive—but no, she bailed completely.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 2:14pm EDT

re: Mikeh33

Mikeh33 wrote:
Scorpion_runner wrote:
By the time swimmers are 22, they are considered to be almost ancient, because there is always some 16 -18 year old to come out of nowhere to blow you away. Is that due to the hormonal and growth changes of a woman's body as she ages, which comes on rapidly compared to a man's body?
At the age of 16, Katie blew away the swimming world. Now at the age of 22, there is an 18 year old Aussie who is starting to mow her down.
Swimming requires a lot of flexibility, and a woman loses a lot of here flexibility as soon as she turns 20 compared to her teen years. This is why gymnasts have an even shorter shelf life of competing at a high level: 14-18. After 18 they are considered to be grandmothers. Biles was 18 in the last Olympics, so I'm sure there will be some, young flexible gymnast to take over in 2020 olympics.
Swim coach talking here, and you are wrong. Katie was not beaten because she is old, she was beaten because her coaches at Stanford misjudged her taper. Ledecky went faster at a meet just a couple of months ago.
Swimming and gymnastics are completely different. Ledecky does not lack flexibility, and that has nothing to do with her poor swim.

Man talking here, and you are wrong. She was beaten because she was on the rag and has not been sleeping well. She is smooth, bloated, and fatigued. She will be back, with a vengeance.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 2:20pm EDT

re: Sprintgeezer

Sprintgeezer wrote:
Mikeh33 wrote:
Missy Franklin was badly overtrained and overstressed, I suspect, causing her physical breakdown. Nothing to do with her getting old.
Following is my opinion:
Melissa Franklin was, and probably still is, an emotionally-stunted basket case. She did well when she was a kid who was just having fun, having had no idea about what it meant to people what she was doing.
When some realizations began to happen, she mentally folded like a cheap lawn chair. Her mental inability caused her to become physically unfit, irregular, haphazard, and inconsistent. She was so good that she could have experienced normal diminution and still been competitive—but no, she bailed completely.

I am glad you stated, "Opinion" and not fact. Sprintgeezer, you mildly glossed over Missy Franklin's injuries. Franklin for years swam through torn shoulders. Franklin eventually had surgery. We can look back and say Franklin should have shut it down earlier to allow damaged and torn shoulders to heal properly. Missy Franklin still holds 200 yard freestyle world best. Think of all the young high school and college 200 yard freestyle swimmers who have not been able to touch Franklin's 200 yard freestyle record. You are being disrespectful to one of the best U.S. female swimmers in history of U.S. female swimming.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 2:47pm EDT

re: you're unfair

you're unfair wrote:
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Following is my opinion:
Melissa Franklin was, and probably still is, an emotionally-stunted basket case. She did well when she was a kid who was just having fun, having had no idea about what it meant to people what she was doing.
When some realizations began to happen, she mentally folded like a cheap lawn chair. Her mental inability caused her to become physically unfit, irregular, haphazard, and inconsistent. She was so good that she could have experienced normal diminution and still been competitive—but no, she bailed completely.
I am glad you stated, "Opinion" and not fact. Sprintgeezer, you mildly glossed over Missy Franklin's injuries. Franklin for years swam through torn shoulders. Franklin eventually had surgery. We can look back and say Franklin should have shut it down earlier to allow damaged and torn shoulders to heal properly. Missy Franklin still holds 200 yard freestyle world best. Think of all the young high school and college 200 yard freestyle swimmers who have not been able to touch Franklin's 200 yard freestyle record. You are being disrespectful to one of the best U.S. female swimmers in history of U.S. female swimming.

Thats pretty much par for the course for the geezer. He's an equal opportunity disrespectoooooooooor.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 2:58pm EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

Scorpion_runner wrote:
By the time swimmers are 22, they are considered to be almost ancient, because there is always some 16 -18 year old to come out of nowhere to blow you away. Is that due to the hormonal and growth changes of a woman's body as she ages, which comes on rapidly compared to a man's body?
At the age of 16, Katie blew away the swimming world. Now at the age of 22, there is an 18 year old Aussie who is starting to mow her down.
Swimming requires a lot of flexibility, and a woman loses a lot of here flexibility as soon as she turns 20 compared to her teen years. This is why gymnasts have an even shorter shelf life of competing at a high level: 14-18. After 18 they are considered to be grandmothers. Biles was 18 in the last Olympics, so I'm sure there will be some, young flexible gymnast to take over in 2020 olympics.

Most age group programs do in fact start them out quite young............I coached kids as young as age 5, by the time they are up in the 8 to 10 year old age range they are training 5 to 6 days a week. A lot depends on the program, the focus and the coaching. But its not unusual to see kinds on open competition at age 13 to 14. While 22 is not really considered ancient, its around the point in time that the most talented up and comers are nipping at your heels. It takes huge motivation to train 6 to 8 hours/day year round, staring at the bottom of a pool. I was both an NCAA swimmer and runner, swimming being my primary as I was on scholarship. Even then, back in the 70's we were doing twice daily workouts at 10 to 12k yards/day with weights 3 X/week. Many programs had their swimmers doing upwards of 15K yards/day. And i was a sprinter.........50 and 100 free. The distance guys did more. Ledeky will be fine, she's as tough as nails and will recover from this. No one wins 100% of the time.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 3:03pm EDT

re: Sprintgeezer

Sprintgeezer wrote:
Mikeh33 wrote:
Missy Franklin was badly overtrained and overstressed, I suspect, causing her physical breakdown. Nothing to do with her getting old.
Following is my opinion:
Melissa Franklin was, and probably still is, an emotionally-stunted basket case. She did well when she was a kid who was just having fun, having had no idea about what it meant to people what she was doing.
When some realizations began to happen, she mentally folded like a cheap lawn chair. Her mental inability caused her to become physically unfit, irregular, haphazard, and inconsistent. She was so good that she could have experienced normal diminution and still been competitive—but no, she bailed completely.

So in your "opinion" she is lying about her back or shoulder injury, or whatever it was?

6 years ago 07/22/2019 3:26pm EDT

re: Tristate

Tristate wrote:
Scorpion_runner wrote:
By the time swimmers are 22, they are considered to be almost ancient, because there is always some 16 -18 year old to come out of nowhere to blow you away. Is that due to the hormonal and growth changes of a woman's body as she ages, which comes on rapidly compared to a man's body?
At the age of 16, Katie blew away the swimming world. Now at the age of 22, there is an 18 year old Aussie who is starting to mow her down.
Swimming requires a lot of flexibility, and a woman loses a lot of here flexibility as soon as she turns 20 compared to her teen years. This is why gymnasts have an even shorter shelf life of competing at a high level: 14-18. After 18 they are considered to be grandmothers. Biles was 18 in the last Olympics, so I'm sure there will be some, young flexible gymnast to take over in 2020 olympics.
Ever heard of gymnastics?

Gymnastics isn't an endurance sport. It's a power sport .

6 years ago 07/22/2019 3:54pm EDT

re: the value of your opinion

Of course I do not deny that she had shoulder issues. Know what? Many, if not most, do. Many have the surgery. It should take a WR-holder down a notch for a bit, but not out of the game.

Franklin herself has some sense of what happened, but she applies labels like “depression” and “anxiety”.

The issue is that she was an early-developing prodigy, even for a swimmer, and never really developed upstairs. As a result she didn’t develop a strong and resilient personality, and did not evolve any coping, or even understanding mechanisms. It’s not her fault, she was streamed like many, but did not have the intrinsic personality to deal with the things that eventually happen to everyone.

Others get through it, people like Sumrall (Lawrence) and Schmitt. They also go through maturity changes—they are both 29 and swimming well. Dealing continues to be a problem, but they manage. Not Franklin. She could not climb atop the ball that was rolling over her.

“The system” failed her. Like so many, she was used, and not loved, when she was young. She papered over her problems with verbosity, inappropriate constant laughter, and a dolphin smile. I feel for her.

Ledecky is mentally strong. Yes her body will change and has changed, but this was a silver at WC, in a (for her) shorter event—not the end of the world. To train as much as she does, you have to be either a mental giant, or a moron—and she is no moron. I think that she has one more good cycle left in her.

I get the sense that many on the US team are not properly tapered for this meet—they look smooth and slow. This team was picked 2 years ago, and the focus is on Tokyo...I think this WC is “just another meet” for them. Not surprising that she got beaten by Titmus in the 4, who had already previously put pressure on Ledecky.

Ledecky = one of the best athletes, ever

Franklin = one of the most talented swimming girls, ever

6 years ago 07/22/2019 4:03pm EDT

re: Scorpion_runner

Natalie Coughlin -

5 medals in 2004 Olympics (22 yo)

6 medals in 2008 Olympics (26 yo)

Sets PR 100 IM SC (national record) at 32 yo.

Sets PR in 50 FR and 50 Back (national record) at 33 yo.

6 years ago 07/22/2019 4:11pm EDT

re: OLD SMTC SOB

OLD SMTC SOB wrote:
Ledeky will be fine, she's as tough as nails and will recover from this. No one wins 100% of the time.

This.

Hey SOB, good on you...but a swim/running crossover? What did you run, 800m?

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Women's Swimming is the only endurance sport where you get old at an extremely young age.

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