garden variety BQ hobby jogger wrote:I wonder why most famous trail races are ultras.
You might be right about the "famous" ones, but there are many non-ultra trail races. I ran a lot of trail races over the years before I ran my first ultra.
garden variety BQ hobby jogger wrote:I wonder why most famous trail races are ultras.
You might be right about the "famous" ones, but there are many non-ultra trail races. I ran a lot of trail races over the years before I ran my first ultra.
I'm also not much of an ultra person, no interest at all. Never done any kind of mountain type of race. But if I did, would like to try VK, an uphill course, or what they call fell running in britain. Probably nothing longer than say 15Kish.
Based in Pennsylvania, I can tell you the east and west coasts of the United States are very different in regards to ultras. West coast obviously has much more elevation and environmental differences, with deserts coastal forests, really tall mountains. But east coast has a lot of gnarly, techincal terrain, green landscapes and small but scenic mountains. So I think that's something to consider when talking about the national scene.
People in my neck of the woods talk about Western States like marathoners talk about the Boston Marathon. Western States is the "it" race in the USA. I agree with others that Comrades is THE ultra marathon in the world. JFK 50 gets a lot of respect because of the tradition (and JFK's talk of soft Americans), but it's understood to be very easy course because much of it is on what is basically a rail trail. But it's an east coast bucket list race for sure. Barkley is a treasure hunt, not an ultra or a race.
From an east coast perspective, my favorite ultra is the Laurel Highlands Ultra in western Pennsylvania, along the full length of the Laurel Highlands Trail. It's a bit of an under the radar race on the national scene, but most any ultra enthusiast on the east coast knows this race, and has it on their bucket list. Unlike a lot of ultras, this race has history. They were doing this race long before Ultras were cool or even called Ultras. So you'll see a few older guys on the course that were doing this race when you were in diapers. The organizers only let in 100 or so runners each year. The scenery is amazing, and the course is very technical and difficult. And it's point to point, you have 22 hours to run the length of the trail. The best part, you still have to mail in your application, no online registration. So you won't find this one on ultra signup and probably never will.
A good flat and fast Ultra with excellent organization is this one in former East Germany. The course is around the largest lake in Germany and definately a good one to try your "ultra" wings on. You won't get lost here! 75 km isn't quite 50 miles but 46 isn't bad either.
Interesting that the Tahoe 200 hasn't been mentioned yet. I'm not suggesting it is the best or most competitive ultra, but I think it should be in the discussion, particularly since the 200 mile distance seems to be the next frontier. The times are pretty slow, it seems to me, and ripe for more competition. Someone will, in the near future, break 48 hours for the 200 mile distance.
If any top ultra guys/gals are reading, or any 2:25/2:45 and under type marathoners are reading:
Next fall I’d like to run a really fast 50. If you’d be interested in a sub 5hr men’s /sub 6hr women’s 50 attempt with prize money + a bonus for an AR please message me on Instagram/Facebook at Zach Ornelas. Can put together a fast course, weather pending, in the fall and would be happy not to have to travel far while in the midst of coaching xc season. Sage... plenty of time post Comrades...? Have houses any elites can stay at.
PA Runner wrote:
Based in Pennsylvania, I can tell you the east and west coasts of the United States are very different in regards to ultras. West coast obviously has much more elevation and environmental differences, with deserts coastal forests, really tall mountains. But east coast has a lot of gnarly, techincal terrain, green landscapes and small but scenic mountains. So I think that's something to consider when talking about the national scene.
People in my neck of the woods talk about Western States like marathoners talk about the Boston Marathon. Western States is the "it" race in the USA. I agree with others that Comrades is THE ultra marathon in the world. JFK 50 gets a lot of respect because of the tradition (and JFK's talk of soft Americans), but it's understood to be very easy course because much of it is on what is basically a rail trail. But it's an east coast bucket list race for sure. Barkley is a treasure hunt, not an ultra or a race.
From an east coast perspective, my favorite ultra is the Laurel Highlands Ultra in western Pennsylvania, along the full length of the Laurel Highlands Trail. It's a bit of an under the radar race on the national scene, but most any ultra enthusiast on the east coast knows this race, and has it on their bucket list. Unlike a lot of ultras, this race has history. They were doing this race long before Ultras were cool or even called Ultras. So you'll see a few older guys on the course that were doing this race when you were in diapers. The organizers only let in 100 or so runners each year. The scenery is amazing, and the course is very technical and difficult. And it's point to point, you have 22 hours to run the length of the trail. The best part, you still have to mail in your application, no online registration. So you won't find this one on ultra signup and probably never will.
To build upon my fellow PA brethren's take on the east coast vs. west coast battle, everything he said was spot on. I raced in Southern Utah last year, and while the elevation was 6,000 ft higher than where I live, I was surprised to see how well my body coincided with the altitude in thanks due to our own unique conditions here on the east coast.
The hills are nowhere as steep, but the terrain is relentless and quite technical, the hills are seemingly everywhere outside of Pittsburgh. The air is different too, very dense, humid air which poses unique challenges as does the rocky mt and west coast altitude in certain parts, presenting racing challenges coming from different regions.
This is one of the tamest ultra threads I've read on in this site, quite possibly ever, maybe a sign of things to come. The appeal of ultra running is it's variety, and the personal quest that gets embedded into the community. The longer I follow this sport and build up to an ultra, the more I realize, it's very hard to pin down a true GOAT, or the BEST race. There's just so much to account for, every race is so wildly unique. The Laurel Highlands is a quiet secret on the beast coast too, awesome mention, there's different race distances built into the Laurel Highlands event too. That part of state is so beautiful too, nestled into the mountains. I believe the elevation is around 2,700 ft too.
If he can stay healthy, on his current trajectory, Jim Walmsley is doing things in our generation at least that hasn't been done before. Course records @ Western States, Lake Sonoma, JFK, Tarawera and Bandera. He OTQ'd in a wild fashion, and I am intrigued to see what he does in 26.2. Max King is Jim's OG in this running era, but even with Max's 4th place at Western, thus far, Jim's dominance has been demonstrated at the 100 mile distance too. If Jim podiums or wins UTMB, it's going to be hard to argue his legacy.
The biggest question for the sport of ultra running, from a fan's perspective is, how much more change do we see in the sport over the next decade? By that time, all of the guys in their late 20s, early-mid 30s will be past their true competitive peak, unless there's a Browning hiding out there. Do younger road/track guys out of college join the ultra scene vs the traditional road running circuit? Do a lot of the 50-100k records get wiped out from our era and before? What about the 100 mile distance? Thus far, we've seen a lot of fast road guys get humbled by the 100 mile distance in the mountains. More sponsorships, higher prize purses? We shall see..
I agree with the above regarding the most prestigious races and ultra runners of all time. Haven't heard as much about YOUR local scene. In Texas, we have an organization named TROT(Trail Running Over Texas). It puts on 12-15 events per year. Events are up to 200 miles events (Franklin Mountains) and most look like this: 100mile, 100k, 50k, 26.2, 15k, 10k, 5k. So lots of options during one event. Plenty of challenges such as Habanero 100mile(also has a variety of shorter distances) starting at noon on a weekend in August. Starting temperatures usually are around 105. I am not affiliated with TROT but have attended several of their events and thoroughly enjoy them.
I'm a really new fan to the ultra marathoning world, but I was under the assumption that Dauwalter and Walmsley were the the GOATs just based on the amount of records they were breaking. Reading this thread has been super educational and I can't wait to do some more research!
Ultra marathon videos on Youtube are also some of the coolest vids to binge online. I loved the earlier comparison someone made about ultra running being like MMA and I think it'll gain the respect and attention it deserves in upcoming years
LetsRun.com wrote:
It's time for LetsRun.com to really try and figure out the ultra marathon world. Over the next 5 weeks HOKA ONE ONE is going to be sponsoring our investigation of the ultra scene.
I'm hearing rumors and seeing mile markers for a HOKA sponsored 100k starting in Folsom CA and heading down the american river parkway into sacramento.
Any information about this?
All of my comments are through the lens of living in a spot where the ultra/MUT community is not particularly strong or widespread due to geographic constraints. But here is another attempt to push the conversation.
GOAT- In addition to the names already mentioned (Trason, Jornet, et al) you have to toss Pete Kostelnik in there also with his Badwater performance, Cross Continent , and Ke2Key. I am sure there are some fell runners who should get a shout out. When it comes to GOATs in this discipline you need to look at people who changed the way the sport was done. Style of racing or approach to crews or philosophy/ethos. Like Wanjiru or Radcliffe in the marathon, a guy like Walmsley or gal like Camille Herron in ultra running kind of redefined how top end competitors approach racing an ultra.
Best/most competitive races- Western States, UTMB (and associated events), Leadville, Hardrock, I am not super in tune outside of these. There are two handfuls of races that people with even tangential knowledge of ultra running know about. But there is such a huge range in the style of ultra running. Running 24 hours on a track at Desert Solstice is no less or more amazing than completing the Ultra Grand Slam. Running a rails to trails 100 at some stupid fast pace is no less or more amazing than grinding through the mud at Big Horn.
Bucket list- There are races that EVERYONE (or at list lots and lots of people) want to start. The big production events are there for a reason. Lotteries make this really interesting. We want what is hard to get. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once something is sold out, the hype builds and we want it more. Great problem to have, but it stacks the odds of getting a given race really slim. I've got a buddy who has tried to get into Hardrock for years. He is finally waitlisted and based on recent years, should get in. It makes it really tough. So people find other events. There are some really great ones out there. But I am looking for a course that is unique, has some sort of physical character to it (mountains, canyons, whatever), is close to a place my family and I could travel to, is well directed/has a good reputation.
There is also room here for a conversation about FKT routes. Though maybe better designated as a separate thread, some of the best running out there is not even associated with a formal race. AT, PCT, R2R2R, CDT, Colorado Trail, and many, many other completely arbitrary routes that people thought would be a great challenge. This is actually kind of a neat ethos and would be a cool conversation.
Just got caught on this thread. Very informative start. Thank you guys (and gals).
My main takeaway so far is the diversity in the "ultra" world. There are so many subsets to it.
As for the GOAT talk, I think my rule of thumb is if you're not a current runner and I've heard of your name, then you're eligible. But that probably biases me to people who have come of age in the last 20 years.
So I'm not sure I had not realized Don Ritchie was a stud until recently. Just read his obituary (linked at bottom) and it talks about him peeing during races. (something I had done for sure when pacing marathons and I think racing too- no I didn't do it when pacing Paula) What do people do when they've got to take a #2 during Ultras? Is there an established way to handle this?
As for Yannis Kouros, I've heard of him, but did he ever do shorter stuff? Looks legendary at longer stuff but would he have been smoked at Comrades by Fordyce?
And can someone get GOAT status or be contender for the top race if they're not in Wikedia? I don't think Ritchie has a wikipedia page and neither does Bright to London unless I'm looking at this wrong?
Ritchie obit:
And I think Sage deserves his own moniker underneath his name when he posts. What do you all think it should say? Sage feel free to email me. wejo@letsrun.com
As a guy who coaches ultra trail guys here's a list of races I'd consider to be some the best, meaning most competitive, within that category:
USA:
Western
TNF50
Leadville
Hardrock
Broken Arrow
Lake Sonoma
Chuckanut
Speedgoat
JFK
...plus a bunch of others like Way Too Cool, Black Canyon, Georgia Death Race, the Rut, UROC, Bandera, etc. I'm sure I'm missing a few.
International:
UTMB/CCC/TDS/OCC
Comrades (still competitive but just not that exciting to me...)
Marathon des Sables (only on this list for its history)
Lavaredo
Transgrancanaria
Madeira Island UT
Hong Kong
Tarawera
Transvulcania
Sierre Zinal
Mont Blanc Marathon
Zegama
Reunion
Lots on the skyrace circuit like Steall, Tromso, Glen Coe, etc.
Again, lot's of second-tier quality races out there worth mentioning but too many to count. UTWT is a good collection.
Newbiefan1 wrote:
I'm a really new fan to the ultra marathoning world, but I was under the assumption that Dauwalter and Walmsley were the the GOATs just based on the amount of records they were breaking. Reading this thread has been super educational and I can't wait to do some more research!
Ultra marathon videos on Youtube are also some of the coolest vids to binge online. I loved the earlier comparison someone made about ultra running being like MMA and I think it'll gain the respect and attention it deserves in upcoming years
Yeah, look up Comrades too, a long storied, highly competitive ultra in South Africa, 55 miles (89k) on road. It switches up every year, a "down" year then an "up" year, this year is an up year. Sage Canaday is running Comrades this year too.
Ann Trason 14x winner of Western States, won in following years, 96 and 97. Salazaar won in 94. Camille Herron won 2 years ago.
Sage, Max King, Zach Bitter, and of course, Mike freaking Wardian have all ran strong races there in recent years. I am sure there have been others, but those guys came to mind first.
Kouros was a 2:25? marathoner when Spartathlon was first organized. In the 100K WC he has been 4th. World-class at 100 miles, but he truly unwinds over 24 hours & longer.
I can assure all of you Americans who think Hardrock and Leadville are competitive races - they are not. Elite American ultra runners don't even think so. Yes, the course records are special, the races are historic and important. A lot of fast runners want to run these races, but their lotteries make them insignificant in terms of competitiveness. Western States is competitive though because they invite the top 10 runners from the previous year back. There are "golden ticket" races that ensure high quality and the Ultra Trail World Tour organization is feeding the race top international runners.
The problem when talking about range with Max King is he hasn't been able to dominate at the 100 distance. It is changing some now, but right or wrong the ultra trail community in the US has put a lot of stock in the 100 mile distance as the premier distance. Sage, you would get a lot more attention if you were consistently winning at that distance in the biggest races.
Max does underline the problem of ultra GOAT. It is exceptionally rare to have someone dominate across the board. You can be really good at the longer distances and less so at the short. You can be sub elite on the track (traditional distances) and not so good at the 100+ distance. You can be great on the roads for ultra distances but horrible on technical trails or descending.
I think at a minimum you have to break it down in to some categories;
road/track/flat trail
technical trail
~50k, 50mi, 100k, 100mi, 200mi
multi-day/stage
If you want expand outside of the standard "ultra" banner you have:
FTK/Rounds
Technical Trail distances that are marathon and shorter (plenty mentioned already including Pikes Peak)
Vertical races
Orienteering style events such as Barkley
Hi guys,
As far as the GOAT, you either have to decide if you consider road ultras, mountain ultras, or both.
If road, no debate, Yannis Kouros is your guy.
If mountain ultras, it's a bit more of a debate, but I think Kilian Jornet is a good candidate now, even if he does have competition right now, he has been dominant for what? 10 years?
If you require significant results in both, then Jornet is out of contention and Kouros didn't have major results in mountaineous terrain appart maybe Spartathlon I think. Maybe Scott Jurek? By the way, you should read "eat and run", that's a pretty nice introduction to the ultra scene.
As far as races, you named a few. I think they are a good start. I would have added the Spartathlon for its historical significance:
and
HobbyTrailJogger wrote:
If mountain ultras, it's a bit more of a debate, but I think Kilian Jornet is a good candidate now, even if he does have competition right now, he has been dominant for what? 10 years?
If you require significant results in both, then Jornet is out of contention and Kouros didn't have major results in mountaineous terrain apart maybe Spartathlon I think. Maybe Scott Jurek? By the way, you should read "eat and run", that's a pretty nice introduction to the ultra scene.
and
HolyPrick wrote:
As far as male are concerned I feel like I have to mention Kilian Jornet because his range is impressive. He has won everything he attempted on very various races. From Sierre-Zinal (where he is on 5 freaking wins!) (But not an ultra) to UTMB and everything in between.
He has never done (and will never do) roads ultras though so.. but still with his range on the trails he can't be far from the top spot.
To me an ability to do all surfaces is key for the GOAT. One of the reasons why I like Bekele as GOAT for distance running is he has major wins in all three disciplines - xc, road and track. Pete Sampras sucked at clay. That's a big gaping hole in his resume in my opinion.
oakland runner wrote:
Here is my background in order to evaluate my responses to the questions:
Great insight oakland runner -- appreciate it.