Just how much stuff is Filip Ingebritesen on?

A 17 year old running 3:31, drafting/following the whole way, on a very, very fast track, is still extremely impressive, but

I wouldn't be the performers themselves on the same level just yet. Ingebrigtsen is well ahead of Ryun at this age (ran sub 4 as a junior at 17), but Ryun didn't exactly get this kind of ideal pacing and weather. It was hot that day in LA by the thermometer in the shade and quite a bit hotter on the track, and he was clocked at 2:46 for his last three laps with Keino pushing the pace after 400m.

400m-60.9

800m-56.6 (1:57.5)

1200m-58.5 (2:56.0)

1500m-37.1! (3:33.1 wr)

The official splits have the last 1100m in 2:32.2, with the last 1k in 2:18. However, it was Dave Bailey of Canada who led through 400m in 60.9, according to Sports Illustrated. Keino had been at the back of the pack and Ryun behind him but the clip shows that Keino and Ryun had moved up by the 400m point and Keino quickly passed Bailey after the 400m. Ryun had heard that Keino had just run a 3:55 mile at 5900 ft in Nyeri, which some thought was superior to Ryun's world record in the mile of 3:51.1, so Ryun decided just to stay behind Keino and see what he had. Keino according to the article then burst ahead after 400m. I would guess that this would put Ryun more like 61.3-61.5 at the 400m, so more like 2:31.6-2:31.8 for the last 1100m.

Later, Ryun said he had plenty left at the end to go on to the mile mark under 3:50 (He'd crushed Keino quickly after going only with the last 300y to go). Now the one oddity about that SI article is that it says he ran 37.1 the last 300m, but 54 for the last lap. This was a dirt track. We have seen no one else ever close a 3:33 or better race in 37.1. And the temp is supposed to have been 100 on the track. That's not a shade temperature, obviously. I don't think that it was really 300y (putting the time of the last 300 meters at more like 40.57, which is closer to 54 400m pace)--on a 440y track, you wouldn't have a mark for 300y, and they would have been going by the start line. I don't know exactly how they were taking splits, however. This was a dirt track in LA in 1967 at the Coliseum. It would surely have been in yards. There would be markings for the 1500m start. There might not be 400m lap markers from that start, though they'd in any case be close to the same spot. 440y is 402.336 meters, so he may have actually run the last 1320y in 2:46, depending on how they measured it.

Source:

http://www.ryunrunning.com/blog/2017/7/5/3331?utm_content=buffer08455&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

https://www.si.com/vault/1967/07/17/610094/the-best-record-yet

Filip is the best 1500 runner in Europe by a long shot. He will clown every non-Ingrebritsan in the final. The last lap was 54.x off a slow pace and Filip ran 10 seconds off his recent PR. Seriously, nothing to see here.

vivalarepublica wrote:

Filip is the best 1500 runner in Europe by a long shot. He will clown every non-Ingrebritsan in the final. The last lap was 54.x off a slow pace and Filip ran 10 seconds off his recent PR. Seriously, nothing to see here.

Seriously? You read this entire thread, and you still can't spell his name correctly?

LOL at Ingebritesen 'flexing' afterwards. If your BMI is ~12 , don't think the 'Flex' is a good look. And what's with the the hand waggle?

I like people showing some fire after their race, but when it appears like a staged routine. He reminds me too much of centro in that you can imagine them practicing in the mirror for hours before the meet to get that IntsaGrammable posed look down

He will never win global medals if he doesn’t learn better tactics.

Young Ingebrigsten is a marvelous talent, sure he's faster than Jim Ryun at the same age. But c'mon, Ryun went on to world records and a silver medal. So it's a bit early to put Ingebrigsten up there with Ryun.

sbeefyk2 wrote:

He will never win global medals if he doesn’t learn better tactics.

You do realize he already has a global medal, right? He's probably the third best 1500m runner in the world now (arguably, he was a little lower last year in terms of fitness) and he got a World bronze. Seems like he's running to par.

Interestingly, fellow competitor Timo Benitz raised some doubts after Filips miracle recovery in the german media.

Translated from german he said:'Thats kind of extreme how he overtook me [after falling down]. As a high performance athlete I see this rather critical. [...] But to I dont want to get too mad about this, because it would take too much time now.'

Original: "Das ist schon krass, wie der da vorbeigezogen ist. Das sehe ich als Leistungssportler, der auch jeden Tag trainiert, kritisch[...]

Sich richtig darüber aufzuregen, würde zu lange dauern."

I think he got a point, especially because his brother is not even an adult and on similar form...

i am doge wrote:

3:31 guy runs 3:40

wow

definitely much doped

He isn't doped. A 3:30 guy doing this is hardly amazing. But the fact that he's white has all the brainwashed self-hating sissy white SJW types hating on him and anyone else who's melanin deficient. Meanwhile more and more truth about 30 years of E. African doping keeps leaking out and the same sissies cover their eyes and scream loudly to try and avoid seeing and hearing the truth.

Ryun ran in a different era, had much slower 'targets', and was poorly trained. He was also a burnout before synthetic tracks were very common. That said, Jakob has run faster at 1500 meters. Period.

Those splits you posted are goofy for Ryun's record race over the 1500. His last 300 meters was 39.3. His last 440 was 53.9y (a yard track, worth about 53.4 for 400m). His last 1200 was indeed about 2:46. Ryun was about 61.5 for the first 440y, not 400m (Bailey was leading in 60.9). The air temp was 97, on the track it well over 100 degrees. You can get better and more accurate splits from the book "The Milers" by Nelson and Quercetani, or go look up the old Sports Illustrated report. Ryun's race showed he never reached his potential, and it was just another win over Keino whom he dominated until Mexico city, the altitude of course aiding Keino and hampering sea level runners. BUT, Jakob has run faster. Period. Hell, Jakob has run faster than Coe did throughout almost his entire career until Coe finally pulled off a PR near the end of his career. This just shows how silly some comparisons are.

Jakob's progression will be interesting to watch, as he doesn't have standout leg speed. The 5k is probably going to be his best event. If drugs can be wiped out or at least testing fairly implemented he has a great shot at being a medalist at the WC / Oly level.

Iggybringsting wrote:

Coevett wrote:

It's o.k., the 3rd Kenyan failing a test in 10 days proves definitively that every runner in Europe is juiced to the gills. You don't have to provide more 'logic', surely?

I think some Americans here are just bitter that a second Ingebrigsten just destroyed Jim Ryun...

Jim Ryun was a 1:39/3:24 guy. Which Ingerbragstone can hang with that?

No 1:38/3:24 get it right ?

Still more versions to come:

Ingrebritsan

Ingebritesen

Ingebrigsten

Prof. Noel Ignatiev of Harvard wrote:

i am doge wrote:

3:31 guy runs 3:40

wow

definitely much doped

He isn't doped. A 3:30 guy doing this is hardly amazing. But the fact that he's white has all the brainwashed self-hating sissy white SJW types hating on him and anyone else who's melanin deficient. Meanwhile more and more truth about 30 years of E. African doping keeps leaking out and the same sissies cover their eyes and scream loudly to try and avoid seeing and hearing the truth.

Coevett strikes again... sigh

For zee love of Mudda Russia ?

Well, since Henrik is likely doping, the others won't be clean either. Too bad though.

Yes, there always seems to be a lot of contradictions concerning all Ryun's famous races! He certainly didn't run a 37 last 300m in that 3:33.1 WR! This particular race has been analysed and debated on here ad nauseam over the years on these boards. I seem to recall the last time it was discussed, the consensus was that they added a lane on the inside to make it metric! So you have conflicting imperial and metric splits on a track that was marked imperically but was also adapted to create a 1500m race. To be honest, knowing for a fact that recent races at international level have started from the wrong line, I wouldn't be surprised if the splits for Ryun's race are far from accurate. I take them with a pinch of salt.

You do also realise that there have been quite a few fast runs where there have been composite 2:46 1200m sections within them; yes, Ryun's was continuous, but he had a flying start from 300m onwards. It doesn't really make much difference if the 2:46 segment is run at beginning, middle or in 2 parts within a race, they all show that the pace was uneven and that the athlete could have run faster with more evenly distributed pacing.

Cheruiyot's last 1200m in his recent 3:28.4 was 2:46.8;

Coe ran a 2:46.1 in his 3:29.7 if you ignore the 300m from 500 (1:08.4) to 800 (1:52.0), where the pace dropped, and a 2:31.7 composite 1100m;

Coe also ran a 2:46.3 1200m composite in his 3:32.3 Zurich in 84, if ignoring the 300m from 500m (1:09.9) to 800m (1:55.9).

And both Coe's composite 1200m include standing starts.

It should also be remembered that Ryun's 3:33.1 was not on his own, he had Keino drafting him from 300m to 1200m.

The temp in LA for Ryun was not 97F, and if you look up the max temp that day it will be nowhere near.

Pathe News said it was in the 80's on the track. This would have no detrimental affect on someone from Kansas running for 3 and a half minutes.

Highest recorded temp in LA on July 8th 1967 was 71F! according to one site, and 22C (71.6F) according to another. That's almost identical to the temp in London for the World 1500m in 2017.

So we have 2 independent US websites offering historical data, that are identical. No way was Ryun running in 97F. If he or someone claimed to see it on a thermometer, then it was wrong or they couldn't read it properly. Or it had been placed directly in a focused area of sunlight.

The official temperature was 71F, perfect conditions for running a mile.

T&FN said at the time of their report on the meet in LA, that the track 'had been freshly laid and looked fast' just before Ryun's race.

Of course Ryun was an incredible talent, one of the best ever, and would have been capable of faster on synthetic tracks and faster still on today's mondo tracks, but posters often get too hypebolic about temperature and chewed up tracks and solo runs.

Ryun had plenty of drafting in that race, ran in reasonable temp and on a good quality, newly laid cinder track.

T&FN (taken from their publication, “The Milers”) quotes Ryun’s (we have to hope it wasn’t Keino’s, as he was still in front of Ryun at this point) time ‘with 440yds to go…was 2:39.2’. This supports the fact it was a 440 track and not a 400m one, although there have definitely been posters on here that claimed the track was 'altered' to make it a 400m one. So why most of the splits were for yards is anyone's guess!

440yds = 402.344m, so if his last 440 was 53.9, then his last 400m would have been c 53.6.

Meaning his time with 400m to go (his 1100m split) should have been 2:39.5.

Now the IAAF book has it at 2:39.8. So we can pretty much guarantee that his last 400m was somewhere between 53.3 (IAAF’s split) and 53.6 (T&FN).

Now the 2:55.0 that the link gives is backed up by T&FN, which states that he went ‘past three quarters in a fast 2:55.0’.

¾ of a mile = 1207m. So if he passed 1207m in 2:55.0, then his time at 1200m would have been 2:54.0. That means his last 300m was 39.1.

This is backed up by other split times given by T&FN. It states that after passing Keino at the ¾ mark, his ‘next 210yds (N.B = 192m) took only 24.6 seconds,..’

24.6 for 210yds = 25.6 for 200m. Therefore if his last 300m was 39.1 (based on a 1200m split of 2:54.0) and his next 200m was 25.6, then his time at 1400m should have been 3:19.5. ……….AND the T&FN article goes on to state that Ryun ‘continued …. with a last 100m of 13.5’. Which is exactly what it should have been based on 2 other split times given.

T&FN also states, ‘Ryun’s last 320yds (!?) took only 38.1 seconds (equivalent to 300m in 39.3)’.

Now actually if you work it out, that is actually wrong…….

320 yards = 292.608m.

If you divide 38,1 by 292.608 and then x by 300m, you get 39.06 (39.1)

The IAAF book agrees on the last 100m being 13.5. It also has his last 200m as being 26.6.

Now they give Ryun’s last 300m as 39.6, which is 0.5 out from the T&FN figures. This is a bit of a discrepancy, but could be explained somewhat if it was based on Keino’s split going through 1200m rather than Ryun’s, who would have been likely 0.2-0.3 behind.

Either way there is a lot of evidence to propose these as the following parameters for Ryun: -

Last 400m ~ somewhere between 53.3 and 53.6;

Last 300m ~ somewhere between 39.1 and 39.6;

Last 200m ~ around 26.6

Last 100m ~ around 13.5

Anything suggesting his last 300m was close to 37 seconds is nonsense.

Yes, neither of the Ingebrigtsen's have produced performances that are intrinsically better than Ryun's best runs at this juncture, but a 3:31 by a 17 year old is at least as impressive as anything Ryun achieved.

A 17 year old with a world-level coach, facilities, training partners, opportunities, etc.

This isn’t some run-of-the-mill HS junior. He’s basically a professional; a young professional, but one all the same. Using his age alone as an argument is a gross oversimplification inadequate for describing the situation.

And anyway, wasn’t Ryun 20 during his 3:33? Why is a three-year difference significant enough to tip the scales against a then-WR?

Poor grasp wrote:

vivalarepublica wrote:

Filip is the best 1500 runner in Europe by a long shot. He will clown every non-Ingrebritsan in the final. The last lap was 54.x off a slow pace and Filip ran 10 seconds off his recent PR. Seriously, nothing to see here.

Seriously? You read this entire thread, and you still can't spell his name correctly?

Filip Ingebrigtsen. There. Happy? It's a tough one to spell off the top of your head.

MrGambinus wrote:

Interestingly, fellow competitor Timo Benitz raised some doubts after Filips miracle recovery in the german media.

Translated from german he said:'Thats kind of extreme how he overtook me [after falling down]. As a high performance athlete I see this rather critical. [...] But to I dont want to get too mad about this, because it would take too much time now.'

Original: "Das ist schon krass, wie der da vorbeigezogen ist. Das sehe ich als Leistungssportler, der auch jeden Tag trainiert, kritisch[...]

Sich richtig darüber aufzuregen, würde zu lange dauern."

I think he got a point, especially because his brother is not even an adult and on similar form...

I think you're mistranslating that. What I think he's objecting to is how he brushed past the others when he caught back up--"wie der da vorbeigezogen ist."