Tuohy was likely 25-30 seconds faster than Claudia Lane in XC. I don’t hold it against her that they didn’t race.
Tuohy was likely 25-30 seconds faster than Claudia Lane in XC. I don’t hold it against her that they didn’t race.
I put more weight on track so it probably goes Slaney-Cain. Tuohy may overtake them in a year or maybe she won’t. I think it is just as likely that another 14 year old will pop up out of nowhere. Did anyone see that 7th grade Lauren Ping won the MN state meet or that an 8th grader ran 2:09 flat in WI? I realize that they aren’t at Tuohy’s level but the point is that young girls run very fast and then sometimes get slower.
Mary Cain surpasses Mary Decker in my book. Regardless of how she is doing now, I’d consider her the GOAT.
Katelyn has not run close to her times on the track. Until then, she is a XC queen but not GOAT.
She’s still only halfway through her HS career, though, so it’s a few years too early to be having this conversation.
What did Cain do on the national and international State?
yesstiles wrote:
Seyta wrote:
Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.
Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.
Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.
I hate to correct you, but here goes:
Lindgren still holds the high school record officially for 3-miles at 13:17 flat, run on a dirt track in Jamaica the same weekend as running a 4:01 mile at the same meet.
....I could go on.
Galen Rupp shattered his 13:17 3 mile mark bro....
rojo wrote:
I loved the NY Times article on Katelyn Tuohy and US female HS phenoms. In it, I was struck by this quote:
“She might be the best high school runner ever already,” said Jim Mitchell, a Bronxville High School coach who has guided dozens of elite female distance runners during his 40-year career, including, briefly, the last great phenom, Mary Cain.
Is that true? I assume not but don't really know enough about it.
Historians, can you list the greatest US HS distance runners ever and their credentials while in HS?
"Historians"?
HS Analysis wrote:
I think the first, and most obvious, comparison here is to compare Mary Cain’s prs vs Tuohy
Mary Cain- 1:59, 4:04, 8:58, 9:38(i), 15:45
Katelyn Tuohy- 2:09, 4:14, 9:05, 9:51(c), 15:37(i)
A couple of factors to consider here. Katelyn is much, much much better at Cross Country. Over 10+ speed ratings better. Also, every single one of Katelyn’s prs came in a race she won at the highschool level. Cain obviously ran most of her best times with competition. I think it’s hard to compare the two for this reason.
With that said, I don’t think Katelyn could run anywhere near 4:04 or 1:59 with competition, but she could be maybe 4:10 and 2:06. That’s still a long ways off Cain. Right now, I would say Katelyn will probably end being the XC goat while Cain will probably still be the track GOAT( an argument could be made for Efraimson as well, which I will detail below.).
Another contender for the best ever overall would be Alexa Efraimson, who ran 2:01/4:03/9:00. Again, all with competition. She was also, unlike Cain, a Gatorade runner of the year in XC. However, when you compare her best speed rating in XC to Katelyn’s, she’s still almost 7 points off( 165 to 172). Plus, Katelyn ran 172 multiple times. However, she’s closer in credentials in XC where her track times may be enough better to overcome any XC differentials. I would say Efraimson overall is the high school GOAT( including XC/ track).
It should be pointed out that Katelyn has taken a very different approach to track than those two did. She hasn’t been able to optimize her times as much because she’s winning everything. So, that should be acknowledge also.
I like your analysis.
I would however argue thst Tuohy has two whole more years to develop as a track ahlete and is already being considered as the GOAT HS Female because of her outrageous HSR at 5000. She has a lot more left in the tank. Junior yesr will be telling.
Phantasy Star wrote:
Cain is the best. Range needs to be taken into account. She could dominate 800-5000. Like a female Webb.
Ritz and Webb are the GOATs of the modern era. I'd disqualify LV due to sketchy age issues.
On record though he was the correct age and even skipped a grade to be classified correctly.
Amber Trotter, as Mr. Obvious pointed out, was surely the best ever in xc. Her speed rating was an all-time high of 180; she broke Sara Bei's course record in Orlando by 31 seconds; she won the race by 40 seconds (Molly Huddle was 4th), in humidity and wet grass.
http://www.tullyrunners.com/articles/AmberTrotterSpeedRate.htm
On the track, no doubt that Mary Cain is the absolute best with 1:59/4:04/8:58 tactical at world junior/9:38i/15:45 controlled for the standard. No doubt too that Mary Decker was the best relative to world competition. Too bad about all those injuries that she faced until the 1980s when she likely went to the dark side.
Get your head out of the sand wrote:
Anybody that says anyone but Ryun and Decker have their head in the sand. Ryun made an Olympic team, beat the WR holder and ran under 4 how many times? He was completely dominant.
Decker had won indoor records at age 16 and beat world class Runner’s at 14.
While it is nice to say that he has records and olympic appearances but he would not come close to that now and I feel that most people do not take that into account when speaking about modern athletics.
His 3:55 could be worth a little more on a rubber/mondo track but he would not come close to beating EL G so if that is your standard to be the HS goat no one will ever come close even if they are actually faster than Ryun. Arguably you could say Mary Cain was beating some world class runners too. Maybe not top 10 level athletes but definitely world class runners. She made the WC finals remember that.
Lane dodged Tuohy wrote:
ric flair woo wrote:
exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT
NO. LANE AVOIDED TUOHY. IT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN CLOSE LAST YEAR AS TUOHY WOULD HAVE DROPPED HER BY THE 2ND MILE.
Lane was the Reigning FL Champ. Touhy hadn't won NXN yet so at the start of the season most would believe Lane was the best. So if any avoiding was going on tuohy was the one avoiding.
Seyta wrote:
StormSoup wrote:
Are you that ignorant?
Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........
Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.
Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.
Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.
I am Gerry's friend on facebook. Want me to ask him about his 13:44?
I think, at this point, there are only two options for both boys and girls, with a lot of parallels.
Boys: Ryun or Verzbicas
Girls: Decker or Cain
Ryun and Decker were both much better in comparison to the world elites while in HS than Cain/Verzbicas. Ryun and Decker were world championship/Olympic finalist-level athletes while in high school. Cain might have been close with her 1:59/4:04, and Verzbicas would've been well off. Obviously the elite fields have improved with time, and it's hard to compare. Were Ryun/Decker only world-class in HS because the East Africans weren't really running competitively yet? Tough to say.
Gun to my head, I pick Cain and Verzbicas.
Decker. Ranked #4 in the WORLD at 800m at age 15. World indoor record 880/800 at the same age. Stood as the U.S. indoor high school and junior record for 43 years until broken last year by Sammie Watson.
Decker was the #1 ranked U.S. 800 runner in 1973 and 1974 at 14 and 15. Cain's highest U.S. ranking while in high school was #4 at 1500m in 2013. Never world ranked.
OK - we need a taxonomy.
1. Olympic team qualifier
2. Senior USA champion
3. World junior team qualifier/champion
4. USA junior team champion
5. High school national champion (Adidas/Footlocker champion in the past)
Records are good too but they need to be
So Sydney McLaughlin is the GOAT according to this criteria because she was on the Rio Olympic squad
Next, yes, Lynn Bjorklund. Two time SENIOR women's X-Country champion and SENIOR Women's 3,000 meter champion. Then set the 9:08 3000 meter HS record in the SENIOR USA-USSR dual meet in Kiev, Ukraine that held for over 25 years until Mary Cain came along.
Katlyn is good. Let's see what happens.
run with the wom wrote:
OK - we need a taxonomy.
1. Olympic team qualifier
2. Senior USA champion
3. World junior team qualifier/champion
4. USA junior team champion
5. High school national champion (Adidas/Footlocker champion in the past)
Records are good too but they need to be
So Sydney McLaughlin is the GOAT according to this criteria because she was on the Rio Olympic squad
Next, yes, Lynn Bjorklund. Two time SENIOR women's X-Country champion and SENIOR Women's 3,000 meter champion. Then set the 9:08 3000 meter HS record in the SENIOR USA-USSR dual meet in Kiev, Ukraine that held for over 25 years until Mary Cain came along.
Katlyn is good. Let's see what happens.
Does this girls name just mindfu** people? Is it too hard to ask to spell one of the best high school females of all time name right?
Is this conversation about U.S. high school kids only? Otherwise: Budd is hard to argue against.
At age 17:
• 1500m -- 4:01.81 (still the record for 17-year-olds and younger, and for 18-year-olds for that matter)
• 3000m -- 8:37.5
• 5000m -- 15:01.83 (outright world record, beating Decker's 15:08.26, which she ran at age 23)
Touhy: 4:14.45 / 9:05.26 / 15:37.12
Cain: 4:04.62 / 8:58.48 / 15:45.46
Decker: 2:01.8 / 4:40.1i (1M)
Consider this all-time USA HS list, and then Budd's 8:37.5 in 1984 at age 17.
9:00.16i Alexa Efraimson (Camas, WA) 2014
9:00.62 Katie Rainsberger (Air Force Academy, CO) 2016
9:02.10i Mary Cain (Bronxville, NY) 2013
9:05.26i Katelyn Tuohy (North Rockland, NY) 2018
And the year before, at 16, Budd ran 8:39.0. And her best event was arguably cross-country.
Touhy did run her 15:37 at age 15. Let's hope she's the exception and avoids the early-peak syndrome.
So... wrote:
Does this girls name just mindfu** people? Is it too hard to ask to spell one of the best high school females of all time name right?
Useless post of the day. Congrats.
ric flair woo wrote:
yesstiles wrote:
I hate to correct you, but here goes:
Lindgren still holds the high school record officially for 3-miles at 13:17 flat, run on a dirt track in Jamaica the same weekend as running a 4:01 mile at the same meet.
....I could go on.
Galen Rupp shattered his 13:17 3 mile mark bro....
What's that 3-mile time?