Kipchoge needs to win New York and/or Boston (real marathons) to secure his legacy as the GOAT

Precious Roy wrote:

Kipchoge first needs the WR to secure his legacy as the GOAT. He will keep running Berlin and London until he gets it. He is 33. So, the next two years are probably his last chance to get it before age becomes a factor. After that, it would be nice to see him run NY. Haile crashed out at NY and left many wondering whether he could race a marathon or was just good at time trialing. Kipchoge is a much better racer at the marathon than Haile was. But to secure his legacy, it would be nice to see him dominate a race like NY with lots of surges and hills.

You are incorrect. He does not need the WR to secure his legacy. He is currently the GOAT until someone comes along and assembles a greater marathon career than him.

Neither of the two people who have run faster than him (Bekele or Kimetto) have the credentials IN THE MARATHON that Kipchoge does other than the several-or-so seconds faster they have run in one race each. And other than those two, the closest next contender for GOAT is Kipsang, but I don't think you can put forward a plausible argument that Kipsang > Kipchoge.

Having said that, the WR would be icing on the cake.

I mostly agree with you as well. I do think Kipchoge was already the marathon GOAT going into yesterday, but Kipsang wasn’t too far off (you made me check—I had forgotten how varied and impressive his wins and podiums are). Regardless, that’s moot now.

And definitely, Kipchoge’s top two priorities from here on in are the WR and an unpaced win or two (with New York being the most-impressive venue for it), either of which done in an impressive fashion will make him tougher to dethrone as the GOAT (and BOTH of which would firmly ensconce him for the foreseeable future).

bdch wrote:

Kipchoge needs one thing, and one thing only to be undisputedly the GOAT - the WR.

Maybe. For sure if he got it, there would be no argument. But running a WR depends on so much more than just fitness and ability. The terrain for sure. And the pacers - as has been pointed out by the Brojos, year after year London gets great fields and godawful pacers. Remember the year they got Haille as a pacer, and he went out in WR time and blew up the field?

And possibly more than anything, a WR depends on weather. With the record being as low as it is now (Dennis Kimetto has faded quickly, but when he set that record he was an absolute beast), it takes an almost perfect day to break it, in my opinion. Last fall, in Berlin, they had the field, and the pacers, but they got knackered by a cold rain, which was not only uncomfortable, to say the least, but led to soggy and heavy shoes. Today it was simply too hot. I know it's the same conditions for everybody, but we're not talking about winning a race, we're talking about running the fastest time ever. And for that you need 5-10C, not 20C, minimal wind, and maybe cloud cover as well. In my opinion.

Kipchoge has maybe 3-5 more races to get the WR. That's maybe 1 or 2 more perfect days. Will he manage to be injury-free and in top shape when and if those days happen? I hope so. But in my opinion, he's still the GOAT, because of the times he's run, the number and quality of races he's won, and the runners he's beaten. A WR would be great, but a lot of things will have to converge for that to happen, even for someone as great as he.

You totally nailed. Until he can dominate a tough mudder and American ninja warrior he’ll never be the GOAT. Americans are so much tougher than people who can just run impossibly fast for long distances. That’s so weak.

Phantasy Star wrote:

lol no

If Kipchoge ran Boston he would have been 2:17 or DNF. Boston is legit. Weaksauce East Africans can't handle the hills or lack of pacers. They need to pampered.

Please stop disrespecting the Africans. I assume you have forgot lets say Mutai and Mosop that have run the fastest ever in Boston? 2.03.02?

2.03.06?

Gosh I hate this talk. Except from Meb and Yuki this year A Kenyan or Ethiopian have won Boston the last 30 years.

And yes Rupp won Chicago last year. But before that... Yes about 20 Kenyans winners.

Please stop with the bull.

mike666 wrote:

Please stop disrespecting the Africans. I assume you have forgot lets say Mutai and Mosop that have run the fastest ever in Boston? 2.03.02?

2.03.06?

Gosh I hate this talk. Except from Meb and Yuki this year A Kenyan or Ethiopian have won Boston the last 30 years.

And Meb was born in Africa.

About that 2:03:02, not to disrespect Geoffrey Mutai, who remains one of my favorite marathoners ever, and later that year went on to win and demolish the NY CR in one of the great runs (IMO) of all time, but that was one of those absolutely perfect days Eliud Kipchoge must dream about. He had a huge tailwind, cool and cloudy conditions, and Ryan Hall to act as an unofficial pacemaker for the first 25 or 30 km. So while it was the fastest Boston time ever, I'm not sure it was the greatest. Hell, I ran Boston this year and Yuki's 2:15 in those condtions was mighty impressive.

Incidentally, a few years ago I was in the tent in Hopkinton,waiting for my wave to get called, and I got to talking with a guy who knew Ryan Hall. He said Ryan had had a surreal moment that day around 35 km. He said Ryan looked at his watch, noted he was about 20 secs under the then WR, but when he looked up, Mutai and Mosop were completely out of sight. Crazy.

E-Pain wrote:

A convincing win against a stacked field in Boston or NY would put him even a notch higher in the pantheon of great marathoners, more than chasing seconds year after year just for the sake of a WR.

There has not been a stacked field in Boston or NYC for a long time. Kipchoge runs against the best fields in London and occasionally Berlin.

He doesn't need the Abbott races for a WR, nor needs the WMM for $.

Grab a cool $500,000 appearance fee from Dubai and let it fly.

Hsjdjdj wrote:

The American marathoners have second rate competition. He’s already won Chicago which (prior to removing pacers) had the best elite fields in the US.

I’m on the east coast, and personally, don’t want to see him run Boston or NYC. Although, he could prob win NYC after Berlin on 80% effort.

In fact, I’m UPSET that Rupp keeps running American marathons instead of going to the top marathons (London, Berlin).

And that's why you're a jackazz. New York is, at best, a real RACE - winds, hills, sometimes cold, others a bit warm.

Why the eff should anyone care about these glorified time trials? You must LOVE flat golf couse xc too.

Chicago is NOT a real marathon, pacers or not.

Kipchoge needs New York for his legacy., FACT, and he obviously has a stronger shot at winning then-- hah hah-- Rupp ever will.

NYC is a joke course. A marathon is not a Tough Mudder challenge.

Kipchoge is a lock to win Boston or NYC.

As I said, I’m ok with him running NYC. He should run Berlin in September, decompress, and run NYC at 80% effort just to get the win — run 2:08:30.

It would be a waste of a training cycle to train solely for Boston or NYC at this point.

Dubai!!! wrote:

He doesn't need the Abbott races for a WR, nor needs the WMM for $.

Grab a cool $500,000 appearance fee from Dubai and let it fly.

Good point. If a half dozen no names can compete for a sprint finish in 2:04 flat on the new Dubai course, then Kipchoge can run a 2:02 easy there. Cut the crap and take the fastest route to a world record, Kipchoge. No need to do it in a WMM.

SloppyMeatHole wrote:

Win a 2ndrate marathon run on joke/gag courses, which can only attract serious talent by overpaying?

Why the fuck would he waste his time doing that?!??

Amen . Both races are now 2nd tier . They are basically the Spring and Fall hobbyjogger Olympics . Neither seems at all interested in getting an international field anymore and seem to be slanting it to get an American winner .

I'd love to see a loaded field for Tokyo next year. This year there was 25 men sub 2:14, 15 of which PB'd + 2 debuted. The depth was astounding considering only 7 East Africans finished the race.

Speaker of Hard Truth wrote:

Idiot. 0/10

Thread made it to the front page and an article. Plus we are on the third page. Other than repeatedly posting on his own thread, it's pretty good.

6/10

Kipchoge could race-walk those two races (NY and Boston) and still win.

Sara Palin wrote:

Speaker of Hard Truth wrote:

Idiot. 0/10

Thread made it to the front page and an article. Plus we are on the third page. Other than repeatedly posting on his own thread, it's pretty good.

6/10

Some of the most popular threads on this site are also some of it's worst

Querfeldein wrote:

There has not been a stacked field in Boston or NYC for a long time. Kipchoge runs against the best fields in London and occasionally Berlin.

To be fair, it's really only London that has the stacked fields, isn't it? Last year was a bit of an anomaly for the men in Berlin, and they had some real depth, even if most of it DNFd or performed poorly. But most years it's just 2 or 3 real contenders, right, and some really, really good pacers.

New York generally has pretty awesome women's fields, but yes, the men seem to be fading, maybe because you have 3 majors at around the same time. This year, I'd love to see them try to attract Bekele and Farah, to name two - both these guys are good on hills, and my sense is they'd do really well there.

Boston certainly seems unable to attract the very fastest of the fast. I suspect a lot of the top runners are a bit afraid of Boston, not really sure how they would run it. That is, with the flat courses, tactics are pretty straightforward. You either start hard and try to hang on, or you hold back and try to kick at the end. Boston is trickier, for two reasons. First the hills. The 4 Newton Hills start around mile 16, around when the body is starting to really hurt, and stretch until about mile 21. And it's really hard to gauge how much energy to hold in reserve for them. Also, the downhills for the first three miles, and for about a mile starting at mile 1, just before Newton, are really steep, and if you don't watch it, can really do a number on the quads, and make the last 5 mainly downhill miles after Heartbreak tough to attack. Second the weather. Boston weather is so unpredictable in the spring, often vicious. I've started Boston 10 times now, and only half of those have been decent weather days. This year it was horrendous, last year temps were in the 20s C, in 2012 in the 30s C, in 2008 there was the nor'easter. Further, the forecast can change on a dime, even in the last couple of days. So it is very difficult to prepare yourself for the weather.

So my opinion is that many elites avoid Boston because they only run 2 marathons a year, maybe 10 in a career, and they'd rather not waste one of those runs on the complicated event that is the Boston marathon.

Finally, I suspect that other than London, the majors are losing a bit of their lustre. Now that Tokyo has been added, we're up to 6, which waters things down a little. Also, there are now many good, high paying 'smaller' races, like Dubai, Frankfort, Rotterdam, etc. You don't have to run majors to make a living.