Very good run by Clinger. The ISU track is fast (having run on it several times) and on Saturday at Simplot they are allowed to wear spikes so the plywood falls are not an issue (though it is indeed slippery without spikes for the kids on Friday). The field house there is HUGE so the temperature is good compared to most indoor meets. But Poky is almost 5000', no getting around that... 8:54 is heavy duty.
That said, it's won just around 9 flat every year.
Think it is way interesting that Clinger went 8:54. Many here in Utah were wondering if Casey was going to go after it this year. Think it is great people throwing barbs at Casey. Go ahead keep throwing shots at him. Casey is a predator when he gets pissed. You do not want to put CASEY CLINGER on a freakin mission!
armored wrote:
You do not want to put CASEY CLINGER on a freakin mission!
Noted.
armored wrote:
You do not want to put CASEY CLINGER on a freakin mission!
Is he LDS? If so, someone better tell the church.
XY wrote:
Fantastic run!
However, I'm not throwing shade, but I think the negative effect of altitude over 3200m is way overstated.
Have you ever run a 5000, 3200, or 3000 m at altitude?
Coyote Montane wrote:
XY wrote:Fantastic run!
However, I'm not throwing shade, but I think the negative effect of altitude over 3200m is way overstated.
Have you ever run a 5000, 3200, or 3000 m at altitude?
Yes. I lived and trained at 4500 ft, where I ran 15:25 for 5k. NCAA conversion gave me a hair under 15:05. There is NO WAY I could run 15:05 at that time. Know how I know? I went down sea level for a few weeks and tried.
I could not even run a simple 3 x mile workout at 15:05 pace. I ended up running 15:18.
I ended up breaking 15 a few years later, but I was in significantly better shape than I was for my 15:25 altitude run.
pizzaface wrote:
Coyote Montane wrote:Have you ever run a 5000, 3200, or 3000 m at altitude?
Yes. I lived and trained at 4500 ft, where I ran 15:25 for 5k. NCAA conversion gave me a hair under 15:05. There is NO WAY I could run 15:05 at that time. Know how I know? I went down sea level for a few weeks and tried.
I could not even run a simple 3 x mile workout at 15:05 pace. I ended up running 15:18.
I ended up breaking 15 a few years later, but I was in significantly better shape than I was for my 15:25 altitude run.
My 3K was 9:21 at altitude (outkicking Olympian Lorraine Moeller at an all comers meet) and 8:54 at sea level, 3 years apart but the latter was at 31 when I had less speed.
More recently Katie Rainsberger last year ran 10:20 for 3200 at altitude, 9:00 for 3K at SL. 1600 4:44 altitude, mile 4:40 at sea level. Note that the mile is slightly longer, so that's closer to 4:38 for 1600.
Then think of guys like Adam Goucher, Brian Berryhill and Steve Pifer. They never broke 4 at altitude (let alone under 4:01), but ran 3:54-3:55 at sea level, with Berryhill going 3:35 in the 1500, while never breaking 3:45 at altitude.
Also consider there are very few competitive meets at altitude. Goucher, Berryhill, Pifer are all terrible examples because of this.
Clinger might run 8:45 at Arcadia in 2 months, but that doesn't mean the conversions are right.
And really, that's a problem with the conversions: They take all available variables and boil them down to 1 number.
A top BYU or Colorado runner will appear to take full advantage of the conversions because they are training for sea-level races. They run reps at sea-level paces and increase rests (I tried out for BYU a few times, this is first-hand knowledge). They typically don't race all-out at altitude. All of this contributes to large disparities between altitude and sea-level times.
Meanwhile, a HS runner who trains and competes solely at altitude will train and compete accordingly. Intervals are done at altitude paces with more reasonable rests. These runners have decent competition at altitude and so will see less difference between altitude and sea-level times.
I might have approached 15:00 while training at altitude if I had run more reps at 72s. I would have had to increase rests, but it would have prepped me to handle the pace. As it was, I'd been running 74s in all my workouts (prepping for altitude races) and I simply wasn't prepared to handle the faster pace when I went to 300 feet.
Trialswatcher wrote:
First of all here is NO less Oxygen at altitude than at sea level:
Air at altitude is commonly mistaken for being lower in oxygen but this is incorrect. Air, at any level, contains 20.93% oxygen, 0.03% carbon dioxide and 79.04% nitrogen. Instead, as elevation increases, oxygen has a progressively lower partial pressure (1)
To the last poster.
Either you believe in the conversions or you do not, you do not get to pick and choose.
The NCAA mile conversion for Colorado guys was 6 seconds, and that is at almost 2K feet lower than Mexico City.
If the conversion is to be believed , Keino logically would get less as he was at altitude his whole life essentially, but Ryun who was barely ever at Alt. certainly would get closer to the full. He ran the event a multitude of times and never ran 3:31.9 or even an equivalent mile.
So, the point being, it will always hold up for some, it is more a function of the day., the comp etc like a Soratos.
Let me know when Zach Perrin or Klecker run 3:55 or 356 when they drop to seal level. Even Saarel who has run 3:38 once could only manage a 7:53 for 3K , which is a better event for him, a week or so later.
The conversions are what they are, but to me way too aggressive especially for guys who have been at altitude for long periods of time.
Your posts have to be some of the most idiotic I have ever seen. Yes, the percentage of oxygen is about the same at any elevation, however, there are less of all constituent gases as you go up in elevation (ie. a cubic foot of air at sea level has 25% more oxygen, helium, nitrogen, etc. as the same cubic foot of air at 10,000 feet). According to your logic, people shouldn't die on Everest, as the percentage of oxygen is the same, and yet people die on Everest almost every year.
joedirt wrote:
Your posts have to be some of the most idiotic I have ever seen. Yes, the percentage of oxygen is about the same at any elevation, however, there are less of all constituent gases as you go up in elevation (ie. a cubic foot of air at sea level has 25% more oxygen, helium, nitrogen, etc. as the same cubic foot of air at 10,000 feet). According to your logic, people shouldn't die on Everest, as the percentage of oxygen is the same, and yet people die on Everest almost every year.
He's trolling you.
Anyone know what an 8:55 3000m at Heber City is "worth"?
rojo wrote:
At the Simplot Games, the only two-time NXN champ in US HS history, was stellar in the boys 3200. In a race held at 4,539 feet of altitude, Clinger, who has an 8:52 2-mile pb from last year outdoors, ran 8:54.97 in the boys 3200.
Now 8:54 indoors is great for a HSer. To do it a 4,500 feet of altitude is absurd. At that elevation, the NCAA would knock off 11.4 seconds from Clinger's time for a 3k - so about 12.1 seconds for 3200. So if you knock off 12 seconds and then add 3 back to convert to a 2-mile, Clinger basically ran the equivalent of a 8:45-6 2- mile.
Only 5 US highchoolers have ever run 8:45 or faster for the 2-mile indoors and just 3 Americans. Could Clinger be in the hunt for what we consider to be the record - Gerry Lindgren's 8:40 from 1964?
The fastest indoor 2 mile performers in US history.
8:39.15 &Edward Cheserek’ (St. Benedict’s, Newark, New Jersey) 2013
8:40.0 Gerry Lindgren (Rogers, Spokane, Washington) 1964
8:40.70 #Lukas Verzbicas’ (Orland, Sandburg Park, Illinois) 2011
8:42.7 Jeff Nelson (Burbank, California) 1979
8:45.19 Alan Webb (South Lakes, Reston, Virginia) 2001
Boys 3200 Meter Run -
================================================================
Name Year School Finals
================================================================
Finals
1 Clinger, Casey 12 American For,Americ 8:54.97
2 Barton, Garrett 12 Ogden Track,Ogden, 9:20.41
3 Feeny, Travis 12 Ogden Track,Ogden, 9:26.23
4 Equall, Chase 12 Bozeman Dist,Bozema 9:26.79
5 Cooper, Haydon 12 Maple Mounta,Spanis 9:28.35
6 Kallgren, Wesley 11 Star Valley,Afton, 9:28.68
7 Haroldsen, Coen 12 Haroldsen, C,Idaho 9:29.76
8 Osterstock, Nate 12 Olympus,Holladay, U 9:31.28
9 Perry, Denver 12 Bonneville T,Ogden, 9:34.98
10 Condelario, Garrett 12 Mustangs of,Casper, 9:37.37
11 Hinckley, Michael 12 Skyridge Fal,Lehi, 9:38.81
12 Beatty, Marshall 12 Mountain Wes,Missou 9:47.78
13 Maqtal, Abdi 12 Team-Idaho,Boise, I 9:57.55
14 Todd, Camren 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 9:57.86
Clinger wasn't the only NXN champ to excel as women's NXN champ Brie Oakley won the girls 1600 in 4:48. The NCAA would take 5.5 seconds off the time in their conversion so think of that as a 4:43 flat for 1600.
Finals
1 Oakley, Brie 12 Oakley, Brie,Centen 4:48.53 3
2 Halladay, Lexy 9 Team-Idaho,Boise, I 5:01.80 3
3 Hollingsworth, Sammy 12 American For,Americ 5:10.83 3
4 Marler, Mackenzie 10 Cheyenne Eas,Cheyen 5:11.14 3
5 Musselman, Sara 12 American For,Americ 5:11.84 2
6 Kenyon, Madi 10 Rough Rider,Johnsto 5:11.96 3
7 Olsen, Molly 12 Mustangs of,Casper, 5:12.50 3
8 Struthers, Kaitlin 12 Skyridge Fal,Lehi, 5:14.49 3
9 Drollinger, Paytin 12 Shelley,Shelley, ID 5:15.27 2
10 Lee, McKenna 11 Warrior Trac,Pleasa 5:15.68 2
11 Wright, Lexi 11 American For,Americ 5:16.44 3
12 Johnson, Emmy 9 Laramie Trac,Larami 5:17.90 2
13 Miller, Claudia 10 Cheyenne Cen,Cheyen 5:19.19 3
14 Corrales, Lina 11 Lion Speed T,Denver 5:21.23 2
15 Jenkins, Emma 11 Jenkins, Emm,Camas, 5:21.48 3
15 Gigstad, Hannah 11 Ric Rojas Ru,Broomf 5:21.48 2
17 Behunin, Hannah 12 Evanston Tra,Evanst 5:21.59 2
18 Duckworth, Katie 11 Olympus,Holladay, U 5:22.56 1
19 Connell, Jenna 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 5:23.06 2
20 Weaver, Miah 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 5:24.24 3
I don't care
lkgkj wrote:
Anyone know what an 8:55 3000m at Heber City is "worth"?
Something like 7:55.
pizzaface wrote:
Also consider there are very few competitive meets at altitude. Goucher, Berryhill, Pifer are all terrible examples because of this.
Clinger might run 8:45 at Arcadia in 2 months, but that doesn't mean the conversions are right.
You have a point, but only to an extent. Brent Vaughn went 9:05 in Denver, 8:45 at Arcadia. You think he was capable of running 8:45 at high altitude "in the right race?" Kevin Williams went 9:06 for 3200 in Denver, then ran 8:51 for two miles closer to sea level. Again, no way he approaches that in Denver. Walt Schafer 9:15 in Denver, 8:57 at Arcadia.
There have been numerous examples of this over the years, and there's probably a reason nobody has ever gone sub-4:10 for the 1600 or sub-9:00 in Denver. Nobody has ever gone sub-9:00 in Albuquerque either, which is a little lower. Many examples of Utah runners over the years running faster at sea level too. Puskedra, Saarel, Pilkington, etc.
But, a GOOD indoor facility is probably worth a faster time than outdoors or at least equivalent at the same altitude. Simplot is about 1000 feet lower than where most of the CO times are run, and I think that makes a big difference. Still, I would not be at all shocked if Clinger ran 8:45 or better at Arcadia if he isn't peaking too early.
There is definitely some adjustment for even an altitude-trained runner going to sea level.
Bony boby wrote:
[quote]rojo wrote:
At the Simplot Games, the only two-time NXN champ in US HS history, was stellar in the boys 3200. In a race held at 4,539 feet of altitude, Clinger, who has an 8:52 2-mile pb from last year outdoors, ran 8:54.97 in the boys 3200.
Now 8:54 indoors is great for a HSer. To do it a 4,500 feet of altitude is absurd. At that elevation, the NCAA would knock off 11.4 seconds from Clinger's time for a 3k - so about 12.1 seconds for 3200. So if you knock off 12 seconds and then add 3 back to convert to a 2-mile, Clinger basically ran the equivalent of a 8:45-6 2- mile.
Only 5 US highchoolers have ever run 8:45 or faster for the 2-mile indoors and just 3 Americans. Could Clinger be in the hunt for what we consider to be the record - Gerry Lindgren's 8:40 from 1964?
The fastest indoor 2 mile performers in US history.
8:39.15 &Edward Cheserek’ (St. Benedict’s, Newark, New Jersey) 2013
8:40.0 Gerry Lindgren (Rogers, Spokane, Washington) 1964
8:40.70 #Lukas Verzbicas’ (Orland, Sandburg Park, Illinois) 2011
8:42.7 Jeff Nelson (Burbank, California) 1979
8:45.19 Alan Webb (South Lakes, Reston, Virginia) 2001
Boys 3200 Meter Run -
================================================================
Name Year School Finals
================================================================
Finals
1 Clinger, Casey 12 American For,Americ 8:54.97
2 Barton, Garrett 12 Ogden Track,Ogden, 9:20.41
3 Feeny, Travis 12 Ogden Track,Ogden, 9:26.23
4 Equall, Chase 12 Bozeman Dist,Bozema 9:26.79
5 Cooper, Haydon 12 Maple Mounta,Spanis 9:28.35
6 Kallgren, Wesley 11 Star Valley,Afton, 9:28.68
7 Haroldsen, Coen 12 Haroldsen, C,Idaho 9:29.76
8 Osterstock, Nate 12 Olympus,Holladay, U 9:31.28
9 Perry, Denver 12 Bonneville T,Ogden, 9:34.98
10 Condelario, Garrett 12 Mustangs of,Casper, 9:37.37
11 Hinckley, Michael 12 Skyridge Fal,Lehi, 9:38.81
12 Beatty, Marshall 12 Mountain Wes,Missou 9:47.78
13 Maqtal, Abdi 12 Team-Idaho,Boise, I 9:57.55
14 Todd, Camren 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 9:57.86
Clinger wasn't the only NXN champ to excel as women's NXN champ Brie Oakley won the girls 1600 in 4:48. The NCAA would take 5.5 seconds off the time in their conversion so think of that as a 4:43 flat for 1600.
Finals
1 Oakley, Brie 12 Oakley, Brie,Centen 4:48.53 3
2 Halladay, Lexy 9 Team-Idaho,Boise, I 5:01.80 3
3 Hollingsworth, Sammy 12 American For,Americ 5:10.83 3
4 Marler, Mackenzie 10 Cheyenne Eas,Cheyen 5:11.14 3
5 Musselman, Sara 12 American For,Americ 5:11.84 2
6 Kenyon, Madi 10 Rough Rider,Johnsto 5:11.96 3
7 Olsen, Molly 12 Mustangs of,Casper, 5:12.50 3
8 Struthers, Kaitlin 12 Skyridge Fal,Lehi, 5:14.49 3
9 Drollinger, Paytin 12 Shelley,Shelley, ID 5:15.27 2
10 Lee, McKenna 11 Warrior Trac,Pleasa 5:15.68 2
11 Wright, Lexi 11 American For,Americ 5:16.44 3
12 Johnson, Emmy 9 Laramie Trac,Larami 5:17.90 2
13 Miller, Claudia 10 Cheyenne Cen,Cheyen 5:19.19 3
14 Corrales, Lina 11 Lion Speed T,Denver 5:21.23 2
15 Jenkins, Emma 11 Jenkins, Emm,Camas, 5:21.48 3
15 Gigstad, Hannah 11 Ric Rojas Ru,Broomf 5:21.48 2
17 Behunin, Hannah 12 Evanston Tra,Evanst 5:21.59 2
18 Duckworth, Katie 11 Olympus,Holladay, U 5:22.56 1
19 Connell, Jenna 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 5:23.06 2
20 Weaver, Miah 12 Davis Track,Kaysvil 5:24.24 3
2nd & 3rd in the Boys 1600 too
I know these were only at sea level, but Mondo Duplantis going 18'10.25 in the pole vault and Jordan Geist at 76'10.5 in the shot were way more impressive than Clinger.
Been there, done that wrote:
You have a point, but only to an extent. Brent Vaughn went 9:05 in Denver, 8:45 at Arcadia. You think he was capable of running 8:45 at high altitude "in the right race?" Kevin Williams went 9:06 for 3200 in Denver, then ran 8:51 for two miles closer to sea level. Again, no way he approaches that in Denver. Walt Schafer 9:15 in Denver, 8:57 at Arcadia.
There have been numerous examples of this over the years, and there's probably a reason nobody has ever gone sub-4:10 for the 1600 or sub-9:00 in Denver. Nobody has ever gone sub-9:00 in Albuquerque either, which is a little lower. Many examples of Utah runners over the years running faster at sea level too. Puskedra, Saarel, Pilkington, etc.
But, a GOOD indoor facility is probably worth a faster time than outdoors or at least equivalent at the same altitude. Simplot is about 1000 feet lower than where most of the CO times are run, and I think that makes a big difference. Still, I would not be at all shocked if Clinger ran 8:45 or better at Arcadia if he isn't peaking too early.
There is definitely some adjustment for even an altitude-trained runner going to sea level.
I'm not arguing that altitude has NO effect, just that the NCAA conversion is much too generous, especially for altitude-trained runners.
I wouldn't be surprised if Clinger runs 8:45 in 7 weeks either. That's 7 weeks more training, AND he'll have competition.
But to say he could do that right now at sea level against himself is awfully generous.
pizzafaze wrote:
Been there, done that wrote:You have a point, but only to an extent. Brent Vaughn went 9:05 in Denver, 8:45 at Arcadia. You think he was capable of running 8:45 at high altitude "in the right race?" Kevin Williams went 9:06 for 3200 in Denver, then ran 8:51 for two miles closer to sea level. Again, no way he approaches that in Denver. Walt Schafer 9:15 in Denver, 8:57 at Arcadia.
There have been numerous examples of this over the years, and there's probably a reason nobody has ever gone sub-4:10 for the 1600 or sub-9:00 in Denver. Nobody has ever gone sub-9:00 in Albuquerque either, which is a little lower. Many examples of Utah runners over the years running faster at sea level too. Puskedra, Saarel, Pilkington, etc.
But, a GOOD indoor facility is probably worth a faster time than outdoors or at least equivalent at the same altitude. Simplot is about 1000 feet lower than where most of the CO times are run, and I think that makes a big difference. Still, I would not be at all shocked if Clinger ran 8:45 or better at Arcadia if he isn't peaking too early.
There is definitely some adjustment for even an altitude-trained runner going to sea level.
I'm not arguing that altitude has NO effect, just that the NCAA conversion is much too generous, especially for altitude-trained runners.
I wouldn't be surprised if Clinger runs 8:45 in 7 weeks either. That's 7 weeks more training, AND he'll have competition.
But to say he could do that right now at sea level against himself is awfully generous.
Fair enough. Not sure what the proper conversion is; however, I'd bet Clinger COULD run 8:45 right now at sea level if he was pushed even a little bit. But, he may be in too good of shape too early. We'll see.
Been there, done that wrote:
I'd bet Clinger COULD run 8:45 right now at sea level if he was pushed even a little bit.
Possibly, but then you're changing more variables than just altitude.
I hope for the best for him. Hell, I hope he runs 8:30 at Arcadia and shows his 8:54 was just a workout.