If you care about women's sports and the Caster Semenya situation, you MUST read this article

The story of an autistic girl who was tricked into thinking she could become a man:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/435752/most-heartbreaking-post-day-transgender-edition

She started attending a local PFLAG meeting, where she met many trans people, including a number of FtoM trans teenagers who were raving about a certain “gender therapist.” Although the APA recommends a minimum of one year of “gender counseling” before surgery, this gender therapist (whom I consented to, before really understanding what I was doing) gave my daughter the go-ahead to have a bilateral mastectomy after only two sessions. This gender specialist never reviewed any of the Special Ed records or spoke to my daughter’s previous therapist, who had known her for a decade. And, crucially, she never asked my daughter, “Might you be a lesbian?”

To give you some sense of my daughter’s level of understanding of what it means to transition, she told me recently that she believes that the testosterone “will grow her a penis.” I had to break the news to her that, although this is the mythology in the PFLAG meetings (where a number of the other young trans people are also autistic), this is not the case. She has been taken advantage of. Healthy organs were amputated. This is insurance fraud, poor clinical practice, a violation of APA standards, unethical and unjust. It is a crime not just against women, but particularly against disabled women. So many of these young women who are “transitioning” are also autistic.

It just keeps getting worse. When will the sane people regain the upper hand and protect vulnerable people from this kind of abuse?

Article was decent but doesn't change my mind. People in sport are always competing with otthers who have genetic advantages over them. If they again reduce the max testosterone level then what next? Do muscle biopsies to see if sprinters have higher fast twitch fibers than the average of the rest of the field? Not let someone over 6 foot tall high jump? You are given what you are given let her compete. It is her advantage. Shaq didn't have to play basketball on his knees.

Many are saying that there is nothing Caster can do about the situation . I disagree, she could compete against men instead of women. Because of her internal testicles and high T levels, that would be the honorable course to take.

get used to it.. wrote:

Article was decent but doesn't change my mind. People in sport are always competing with otthers who have genetic advantages over them. If they again reduce the max testosterone level then what next? Do muscle biopsies to see if sprinters have higher fast twitch fibers than the average of the rest of the field? Not let someone over 6 foot tall high jump? You are given what you are given let her compete. It is her advantage. Shaq didn't have to play basketball on his knees.

What's to stop men from competing against women? That's a genetic difference too.

Womens rights issue? What about my right's, as a very competent (but 5'7") basketball player "unfairly" shut out of the NBA by genetic freaks. Or the PGA, by guys with "freakish" strength, coordination and concentration powers?

Or Hollywood, by genetic outlier folks with good looks?

Where's the philosophers?! Elite women have no more right to level the playing field against Caster than I have in any of the above examples. Having single gender competition won't happen because marketers need to target by gender, so there'll always be male and female events.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that there is no solution to T and F's drug problem. If there is $ to be made in TF(and there really is not much for athletes)then let the freaks market the stuff. Leave the rest of us to enjoy the sports many other benefits.

You could create a basketball league with height classes but, once you do, you've got to keep the 6'6" guys out of the under 6-foot category no matter how much they beg and plead that their genetics aren't under their control

Sunken Chest wrote:

Womens rights issue? What about my right's, as a very competent (but 5'7") basketball player "unfairly" shut out of the NBA by genetic freaks. Or the PGA, by guys with "freakish" strength, coordination and concentration powers?

Or Hollywood, by genetic outlier folks with good looks?

Where's the philosophers?! Elite women have no more right to level the playing field against Caster than I have in any of the above examples. Having single gender competition won't happen because marketers need to target by gender, so there'll always be male and female events.

Also, I have come to the conclusion that there is no solution to T and F's drug problem. If there is $ to be made in TF(and there really is not much for athletes)then let the freaks market the stuff. Leave the rest of us to enjoy the sports many other benefits.

get used to it.. wrote:

Article was decent but doesn't change my mind. People in sport are always competing with otthers who have genetic advantages over them. If they again reduce the max testosterone level then what next? Do muscle biopsies to see if sprinters have higher fast twitch fibers than the average of the rest of the field? Not let someone over 6 foot tall high jump? You are given what you are given let her compete. It is her advantage. Shaq didn't have to play basketball on his knees.

I hope you have a daughter and she gets to compete vs a grown man. Bet you change your tune.

get used to it.. wrote:

Article was decent but doesn't change my mind. People in sport are always competing with otthers who have genetic advantages over them. If they again reduce the max testosterone level then what next? Do muscle biopsies to see if sprinters have higher fast twitch fibers than the average of the rest of the field? Not let someone over 6 foot tall high jump? You are given what you are given let her compete. It is her advantage. Shaq didn't have to play basketball on his knees.

A shorter male in basketball can use other testosterone mediated advantages to actually be the most dominant player on the floor; advantages that a 6'10 center cannot have like more speed, quickness and dexterity.

Males with similar muscle fiber composition will tend to choose sports or T@F events with competitors of similar physiology as will females but the females should not have to compete against individuals who are functionally of another sex.

DougC wrote:

Many are saying that there is nothing Caster can do about the situation . I disagree, she could compete against men instead of women. Because of her internal testicles and high T levels, that would be the honorable course to take.

She could pursue another career but she was never going to be a doctor or lawyer so you can understand her wanted to make some money in athletics.

get used to it.. wrote:

If they again reduce the max testosterone level then what next?

The answer is nothing. Testosterone conveys a 10-12% performance advantage. Castor goes from a 1:56 800m to a 2:08 or so.

There's no need to do more than force Semenya to compete with normal female testosterone levels.

Harper recognizes the reasons and the problems for the two extreme positions on this issue. Fwiw, the fairest position seems to be what she advocates, the 10 T level for athletes competing in womens sports, at least until some better scientific way to distinguish between mens and womens categories is developed. And there never will be any ultimate simple way to distinguish the mens and womens categories because we're dealing with a spectrum. Granted, most (99%?) are further away from the middle part of the spectrum where the debate as to where to draw the line rages. It's for the 1% with some characteristics of both sexes that becomes difficult and problematic to clearly distinguish for sports categories. Some will certainly critique this 10 T distinction as being unfair, but that's true of any line of distinction that is drawn.

It's not that the 10 T level is the most fair; it's more like it's the least unfair.

cnaimoli wrote:

Why has no one mentioned Maria Mutola since all of this? That's the first thing that came to mind when all of this came to light in 2009. And if you remember her dominance. I don't think she lost a race in like 10 years! (Over exaggerating)

A few things:

-No doubt, she had a boyish physique which definitely benefited her, but that can be said to some extent for a lot of the best female athletes. Curvy women are usually not great athletes.

- Maria competed during a time when sex testing was more invasive than it is now. Notwithstanding rumor, I don't recall there ever being actual issue about her sex or t-levels.

- Last I heard, Maria is married to a man. Also, I've encountered her on a couple of occasions and her demeanor was much more female than her physique.

-Maria didn't just come from out of no where like a Janet Jelimo and win with relative ease, she actually lost quite a few races. No doubt many of those loses were to dirty athletes like Anna Quroit, Stephanie Graf and a slew of Russians.

- Maria was also well liked and respected by her fellow athletes and I don't recall ever hearing a comment about her sex from any of them.

Sunken Chest wrote:

Womens rights issue? What about my right's, as a very competent (but 5'7") basketball player "unfairly" shut out of the NBA by genetic freaks. Or the PGA, by guys with "freakish" strength, coordination and concentration powers?

I think a coherent argument can be put together along those lines.

But it doesn't lead to Caster competing in the women's 800m. It leads to the abolition of all divisions. Be they based on gender, age, weight or anything else.

Having single gender competition won't happen because marketers need to target by gender, so there'll always be male and female events.

This, on the other hand, is utter nonsense.

rojo wrote:

TrackCoach wrote:

It is a really interesting piece and I was surprised to see Letsrun mentioned in the article..

Harper is our go-to sounding board on these issues for good reason. Not only has she made the transition from male to female, but she's also an elite athlete (2:23 marathon pb) and scientist.

She considers herself a “scientist first, an athlete second, and a transgender person third”.

Harper wrote a guest column for us in 2014:

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/

PS. I' changed the title of the thread. It started with the title of "CASTER SEMENYA PERSPECTIVE ARTICLE"

not to mention she loves to brag about herself.

[quote]test2 wrote:You could create a basketball league with height classes but, once you do, you've got to keep the 6'6" guys out of the under 6-foot category no matter how much they beg and plead that their genetics aren't under their control[quote]

There actually is U6F Basketball:

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-8865-0-0-0

The comparison between weight classes in boxing or wrestling is even more compelling. Differences in weight definitely make a difference. It proves nothing for a 97kg guy to beat a 57kg guy in wrestling.

Sex differences between men and women are just as significant as the differences between weight classes. You can look at the 100m vs. 110m hurdles, hurdle/steeple barrier heights, field implement weights, etc. If men and women were meaningless categories you wouldn't have different hurdle heights, implement weights, etc.You can look at WR times, heights, and distances for men vs. women.

Once you have made this distinction between men's and women's track, you have to have a meaningful definition that separates eligibility for men's or women's.

The solution is defining men's track as "open," in which anyone can compete, and women's track, which has to have some bright-line test for eligibility like T levels. That stinks for Semenya, who is not good enough to be a pro in the "open" category, but a women's category without any meaningful definition is unfair to the much larger number of women without an intersex condition. Women's sports should be constructed to benefit the vast majority of women athletes and not the tiny number of women with intersex conditions.

Dafne Schippers is also closer to man than most other women.

Why can't these slower women just grow a pair? Oh! they can't. How unfair.

I hope things get worked out for the best for all concerned athletes. But the "we" you refer to is referring to who? I hope not the governing body for Athletics. If they are really serious about anything but making money, then any drug cheat should be banned for life. This is another topic I realize and it will never be resolved in any sport because too much money is involved.

How do we strictly enforce the Civil Rights Act which states that no discrimination due to a person's sex can occur while still maintaining women's sports which necessarily discriminate against men simply because of their sex?