Most Kenyan ABP testing is with advance notice

Sorry for the typos

Renato Canova wrote:

Sorry, rjm33, but the reality is that "Responders" to altitude training don't show an increase in the level of Hct and Hb, but instead are able to increase the ability to catch more oxygen from the atmosphere.

And this is due to the INCREASE of affinity between Hb and O2.

but if it is a question of born and living in altitude, what about examples of people not in this case? Like Farah or Radcliffe?

They are not east africans.

rekrunner wrote:

Even your friend "Plasma Rubbish" said it was "bad science" to project the results of a running study to Paula's case.

As an altitude dwelling blood doctor, surely you are aware that among the human species, the high altitude dwelling Andeans, Tibetans, and Ethiopians have all adapted differently to life at altitude.

Andeans have high hemoglobin, and low oxygen saturation.

Tibetans have normal sea-level hemoglobin, and low oxygen saturation (with unusually high nitric oxide in the blood)

Oromo (Ethiopians) have high hemoglobin and high oxygen saturation.

Amhara (Ethiopians) have normal sea-level hemoglobin and normal sea-level oxygen saturation.

If you want to find out about the performance of elite Kenyans, you should probably measure elite Kenyans, and not well-trained Europeans or Americans.

If you want publications, maybe Cynthia Beall wrote some observations.

This sort of thing gets more complicated when you look at different populations and sometimes different studies on the same populations have reached slightly different conclusions. However, these types of observations are essentially a snapshot of blood profiles in populations living at altitude. They do not necessarily mean that Ethiopians or Tibetans do not change their hemoglobin or red blood cell mass in response to a high altitude stimulus. In Himalayan expeditions where these profiles were monitored, the hemoglobin and red blood cell mass in Tibetans did also increase as it did in European team members of the expeditions.

IIRC sprintgeezer took some poster to the woodshed, who claimed after citing a paper that he didn't read that Kenyans have a different physiology.

This is just as good, canova showing he knows nothing about actual physiology.

And canova, the reason that there are no studies of elites is that elites do not allow themselves to be studied because they don't want to risk being exposed as drug cheats. This is what permits you to claim, without any basis in actual fact, that they have a different physiology.

You're so full of carp it's hilarious

LMAO I found it

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4798549&page=4

Total destruction, I miss sg

just sayin wrote:

Rosa's group recently invested in their own blood testing machine, the first of its kind in kenya

Salazar's group has had their own blood testing machine for years. The machine is customized and can test to much better levels than USADA labs can, and much better than anyone else who buys a stock testing machine.

That is the type of humour I really appreciate! Two thumbs up! Go rjm33!!!!

rjm33 wrote:

....................and say Hello to Frederico Rosa!..........

..............Go Renato!!!!!!!................

Renato Canova wrote:

Sorry, rjm33, but the reality is that "Responders" to altitude training don't show an increase in the level of Hct and Hb, but instead are able to increase the ability to catch more oxygen from the atmosphere.

If that is correct, then the Great Responder Paula R. must have doped to obtain the unprecedented hemoglobin concentration of 16.2 g/dL. Not that I am surprised about that, as we all know that, but I am surprised that rekrunner didn't argue against this.

Hoopful, the reason because there are no studies of elites is that researchers want Elites following their usual protocols (so elites must be a "service" for researchers), instead to research WHAT ATHLETES DO IN TRAINING, that could be useful for the athletes themselves.

Every researcher wants to compare the results of his own research with the results of similar researches carried out by other scientists. This can't say anything new, and for elite athletes is a stupid way to waste their time.

When Shaheen bettered the WR in 2004, some researcher (with whom I had relations in many clinics) asked me to test him. When I asked which kind of tests they wanted to do, they answered "the same we have in all the official protocols : on treadmill, VO2 max, incremental test, lactate dynamic, etc.".

I told them : "do you understand this kind of research is COMPLETELY USELESS, since you can have a STATIC PICTURE of the athlete WR holder, but don't have ANY CLUE about the development of his shape, achieved because of his training, for point A (for example, 4 months BEFORE the WR) and point B (the moment of WR) ? I authorize every scientists who wants to INVESTIGATE THE TRAINING to have any test, every day, with the top athletes I coach, since we can have some important info about the variations inducted by his training. But I don't change my training BECAUSE of official physiology, since physiology is a "deductive and experimental science", and can only LEARN from the real facts that happen in the body of athletes training in very different way from the usual subjects of any research, with more talent, more motivation and different training situations.

You are mentally sick about doping, but this is your problem, not my problem or problem of the best athletes, and this is exactly the reason because the exception, among the best endurance runners in the World, is somebody using doping, not somebody clean (99% of top runners).

Hoopful, the reason because there are no studies of elites is that researchers want Elites following their usual protocols (so elites must be a "service" for researchers), instead to research WHAT ATHLETES DO IN TRAINING, that could be useful for the athletes themselves.

Every researcher wants to compare the results of his own research with the results of similar researches carried out by other scientists. This can't say anything new, and for elite athletes is a stupid way to waste their time.

When Shaheen bettered the WR in 2004, some researcher (with whom I had relations in many clinics) asked me to test him. When I asked which kind of tests they wanted to do, they answered "the same we have in all the official protocols : on treadmill, VO2 max, incremental test, lactate dynamic, etc.".

I told them : "do you understand this kind of research is COMPLETELY USELESS, since you can have a STATIC PICTURE of the athlete WR holder, but don't have ANY CLUE about the development of his shape, achieved because of his training, for point A (for example, 4 months BEFORE the WR) and point B (the moment of WR) ? I authorize every scientists who wants to INVESTIGATE THE TRAINING to have any test, every day, with the top athletes I coach, since we can have some important info about the variations inducted by his training. But I don't change my training BECAUSE of official physiology, since physiology is a "deductive and experimental science", and can only LEARN from the real facts that happen in the body of athletes training in very different way from the usual subjects of any research, with more talent, more motivation and different training situations.

You are mentally sick about doping, but this is your problem, not my problem or problem of the best athletes, and this is exactly the reason because the exception, among the best endurance runners in the World, is somebody using doping, not somebody clean (99% of top runners).

Renato Canova wrote:

You are mentally sick about doping, but this is your problem, not my problem or problem of the best athletes, and this is exactly the reason because the exception, among the best endurance runners in the World, is somebody using doping, not somebody clean (99% of top runners).

How can you say 99% of top runners when 5 of the 10 finishers in the final have been suspended for doping, and a 6th being investigated?

How can you say 99% of top runners when 7 of the top 10 100m performers have been sanctioned?

How can you say 99% of top runners when 2 of the top 5 women's marathon performers have been sanctioned?

Renato, the fact that you imply, in many of your posts, that doping is not a problem for athletics (where because it doesn't work, the controls are in place, you've seen it with your own eyes, or because we're obsessed) is the biggest frustration.

I don't care about the discussion over hematocrit and hemoglobin and altitude, and whether doping "works" or not, or for whom. I care about the problem in the sport of people taking drugs. That problem is real, and cannot be ignored or hidden with spin.

We aren't sick about doping. We're fncking frustrated about doping. Were fncking frustrated that it happens, and even more frustrated that some are actively trying to cover it up. Your mistruths, be they about the anti-doping statistics, physiology of doping, or the scope of doping like shown above, shed no truth on the situation, and only work to obfuscate it. Don't spin these arguments as a vendetta, or jealousy. They are just a reaction against the forces of mistruth.

I suppose the 100m runners comment should be retracted. You did specify endurance runners.

Clerk, I'm completely on your side against doping, and I never said there is not a problem of doping in athletics or in other sports.

My position is very hard : if there are rules, and there is some substance that is considered "illegal doping", athletes MUST BE BANNED for 4 years, and at the second time for life.

But I can't accept the OVEREVALUATION of the effects of SOME doping on the performances, because this way is the best TESTIMONIAL for doping.

While it's clear that steroids have a big effects of the performances connected with higher use of muscle strength (no WR after 1988 in all this type of events), it's not clear that EPO can have effects of the best athletes, who are all in the same category : born, living and training in altitude.

For my knowledge, and the clean results I had with my athletes, and the clean results I know for sure from athletes I don't train, I can't accept the idea there are advantages, IF THE TRAINING IS CORRECT AND VERY HARD.

Instead, I can say that also in kenyan and ethiopian athletes EPO can work as shortcut (for example, after losing 3-5 months of training because some injury) for reaching the 90% of the Aerobic level in shorter time.

But what I refuse is the idea that, from 90 to 100% of the potentiality of the best athletes, EPO can have some role : ONLY TRAINING CAN BRING THE ATHLETES AT THEIR TOP LEVEL.

So, my position is very clear : EVERYBODY USING ILLEGAL SUBSTANCES MUST BE BANNED, but we MUST FINISH TO GIVE EPO THE ROLE TO ENHANCE PERFORMANCES IN HIGH PERCENTAGE.

Clerk, if runners who NEVER can be tested (for example, amateurs, or Young runners in HS) really believe in the supposed incredible effects of taking EPO (4 minutes in Marathon, 1 minute in 10000m, 7-10 seconds in 3000m), how many of them want to use the substance, hoping to have big improvements, sometime only for beating the guy working with them in the same office ?

So, what I want is that THERE IS A MORE SERIOUS RESEARCH ON THE EFFECTS OF EPO ON TOP RUNNERS, because their image is the real TESTIMONIAL, in good or bad way, for the normal people.

Say the truth : EPO gives NO ADVANTAGE to the best, and very small advantage for runners of medium level. The advantage is because, taking EPO, they finally train more, thinking that finally they can recover more hard training. But the REALITY is that, before takinf drug, THEY NEVER TRIED TO TRAIN IN THIS WAY, so the main effect is on the mind, and the REAL effect on performances is because of increased training.

And, please, donàt continue with the same story about the official physiology. Training is effective because goes to change some physiological parameter, and the official physiology can only study what really happens in the body, but what happens in the body of subjects running one hour every day, and able running a Marathon in 2h40, has nothing to do with the changes inducted by hard training in top athletes.

When I say 99% are clean, I dont speak about ALL the athletes and all the events, but only about middle and long distances, where the best are African living and training in altitude.

I dont care about sprinters, or Shobukhova, or Russian athletes. Our discussion is ALWAYS about EPO working or not with top African, and my clear position is NO EFFECTS. But I well know there is a big problem of doping in all the sport. And, with the overrated convinction blood doping can be the secret, and not better training, the way today used for fighting doping BECOMES THE BEST TESTIMONIAL FOR THE DOPING ITSELF.

As a side note, you actually replied to me, and not Renato, and you did not quote any context. It's anybody's guess that "new species" was addressed to Renato's claim of affinity.I also see that at least, for now, you think all of may statements "may be correct". That looks like progress, or maybe a mistake you will work hard to rectify later. But, even if correct, you think it misses the point of Renato's claim. I was talking about your need to create a "new species" to explain different reactions at altitude. We see that within the human species, there are quite a wide variety of high altitude adaptations unique to small populations. We just need a closer look at these other groups, and then to update the text books.Is one of your issues that "affinity" is not the right word to describe these observed differences in oxygen saturation?Your textbook explanations seem to describe well what happens when sea-level residents train at altitude.The open questions are:- Do the text books also accurately describe what happens when these other groups train at altitude, like the Omoro, the Amhara, and Tibetans, who have an increased ability to "load the lorries" at altitude? Are "top-level" Kenyans part of this "fully loaded lorries" group?- How would EPO impact these groups of people? I think no one questions new red blood cell production, but will this result in increased oxygen to the muscles? Is so, will this increased oxygen lead to any performance increase, in a class of people already highly trained towards their potential, already possessing this ability to "fully load the lorries"?- Would the extra red blood cells change viscosity, slowing the blood flow, and lactate clearance, effectively reducing, or even overwhelming, any potential performance gains from the extra oxygen?We know what the textbooks from yesterday say. What will the textbooks of the future say?I would agree there is a lack of evidence regarding these other groups. This is not only a Renato problem.

rjm33 wrote:

While your reference to differences in hemoglobin and oxygen saturation may be correct for different people who have adapted to life at altitude.....Renato's claim was specifically for an increase in hemoglobin affinity to oxygen from TRAINING......not just differences from adaptations of these people over very, very long periods of time from LIVING at altitude....and this claim still has zero evidence presented to support it.

I guess that's one way to look at it.I think it is a positive direction to move from no local blood testing to local blood testing.I think it is a positive thing that they are building a local lab.I also think the Kenyan problem is more an anti-doping problem than a doping problem. (Both exist, but the important issue is improving local testing).

Thanks for posting but please forget your theory. It will not be tested and , frankly, is so self serving ithat t is hard to take seriously,

This is simple: If countries want to compete, they need to test properly. Both Eth. and Kenya DO NOT have compliant systems and therefore rely on IAAF to test under poor circumstances with advance notice not provided to athletes in other countries.

Kenya and Ethiopia dominate distance running to the same extent that China dominates table tennis. Without Farah. they totally own the sport. The public in other countries barely pay attention to the sport anymore. Yet these countries can't test properly but their lesser competitors can? I know they are poor counties but they make a lot from athletics and there are ways to make it work. Please stop making excuses. There are great people and athletes from these countries but there are cheats as well.

with just a little more pressure to test, the WMM champion, a 59min HM runner, a world cross champions and others have been busted. Plus, we have reports of meldoniu use in Ethiopia and positives for other substances. Please tyy to help fix this issue. Shaky arguments on physiology are not helping the issue

These arguments I find very confusing.....

Renato has posted some normal hemoglobin and hematocrit values of Chinese female athletes from 2014 but they could only run about a 32min 10k.

What would be more interesting would be if Renato could ask the Chinese people he works with if he could get blood test results from Wang Junxia and her Chinese teamates from 1993 when she ran the 29:31 10k and 8:06 3k world records that still stand today, 23 years later.....

Why haven't the super-elite Kenyans and Ethiopians training hard at altitude crushed these old records set by (never-elite-before-1993) Chinese women back in 1993?

That is about 2.5 minutes faster than your present Chinese women can run with your claimed increase in Hb affinity theory as a cause of improved performance. Why are your 2014 Chinese women so much slower if EPO had no physical effect in 1993 Chinese women?

What was the secret of the 1993 Chinese women? It was probably not only anabolic steroids....because if it was only anabolic steroids....all middle and long distance records would be held by East German women!

We also know that the Chinese women in 1993 were training at a high level, with very hard training at high altitude up to 270km per week, and we can assume that they had strong minds also.

So what was the cause of such a large 2.5 minute difference in 10k times, Renato?

If there was no physical effect from EPO use, then what was the cause?

I also am looking forward to Renato showing us all some 8 year old Kenyan 2:40 marathon runners also.....when will that be happening?

Here is another puzzle.......If Rita Jeptoo was clean when she won the Boston marathon in 2014 in 2:18 she must of been both STRONG MIND and STRONG BODY to win......and be a true Boston champion.

Now Renato says that only people with WEAK MIND use EPO, since its main effect is just a mental placebo effect (a similar theme to Jon Orange), with no actual physical benefit.

OK......so then Rita Jeptoo wins the Chicago marathon in Oct. 2014 with a STRONG BODY again....but we found out that just 2 weeks before the race she tested positive for EPO use...which would mean that she had a WEAK MIND at the same time that she won the Chicago marathon with a STRONG BODY........That does not make any sense to me....Please explain this puzzle Renato.

Here is another puzzle....

When EXACTLY did the mind of Rita Jeptoo become a WEAK MIND?... Does it happen quickly or slowly?.....

What was the EFFECT of having this WEAK MIND?

Renato has stated that the true FOUNDATION of ALL ENDURANCE CHAMPIONS IS A STRONG MIND!

How can it be that if a STRONG MIND is so IMPORTANT to be a champion....that Rita Jeptoo could win and be the champion of the Chicago marathon when she had a WEAK MIND, because she became the champion just 2 weeks after testing positive for EPO (weak mind) on Sept. 25,2014.

Renato, please explain this contradiction.......because this does not make any sense to me.........

I find these arguments very confusing.....so perhaps you could clear up the confusion.

................Go Renato!!!.............

Not in Kenya or ETH. As soon as they get to Holland or wherever they go, but not in Kenya without prior warning. All too predictable

Why have you to give false informations ? The OOC tests in Kenya are ALL without advance notice, apart the situation of blood tests for the ABP.

NEVER there is a prior warning, about any test. Not only, but when the athletes are not in their house, but in the training camps, normally testers arrive at any time, without considering the "window" given in whereabouts, because are sure to find the athletes there.

This happens, always, with my best athletes, and I think happens also in other training camps, with athletes coached by different coaches.

So, please, quit to lie about something you don't know. Facts are facts, and these clearly say you are totally wrong.