ABP blood draws only since 2013 (caught Jiptoo and Chebet), but still flawed due to lack of testing facility:
"The IAAF started collecting ABP samples in Kenya in 2013; "the majority have been advance notice" with athletes told beforehand, Barber said."
quite worrying
Oh but Haile is exempt because he's a nice guy.
Wow...only one reply so far!!!
Wait a minute here!..... I heard from Renato Canova that Kenyans are tested more than anybody!...and yet this article says that the IAAF only started ABP blood testing in Kenya in 2013, usually with advance notice!....Oh my Renato!!!!
As Ashenden said....."Where there is a will there is a way, but when there is no will there are just a thousand excuses."
This wasn't in reference to Paula's blood test results, was it?.....because it might as well be.
And to be fair to Kenya....they did put up "Say no to doping" signs!......
The facts are very clear : everybody who wants to know facts, and not suppositions, has only to go in the IAAF website, looking at numbers of tests (in and out competitions, both for urine and blood), so can PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY to see the truth.
Renato Canova wrote:
The facts are very clear : everybody who wants to know facts, and not suppositions, has only to go in the IAAF website, looking at numbers of tests (in and out competitions, both for urine and blood), so can PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY to see the truth.
Right. And you've told us as much in the last thread (the one about the Canadian's (Coolsaet?) tweet).
This thread isn't about how many tests are being taken by the IAAF, its about the fact that athletes are getting advanced warning.
It doesn't matter how many tests they take, if athletes have a chance to intervene before the sample is collected.
Bingo!If you have advance notice that the professor is going to give a pop quiz the next day, then you have he opportunity to study the night before, or conveniently be unreachable.
Clerk wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:The facts are very clear : everybody who wants to know facts, and not suppositions, has only to go in the IAAF website, looking at numbers of tests (in and out competitions, both for urine and blood), so can PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY to see the truth.
Right. And you've told us as much in the last thread (the one about the Canadian's (Coolsaet?) tweet).
This thread isn't about how many tests are being taken by the IAAF, its about the fact that athletes are getting advanced warning.
It doesn't matter how many tests they take, if athletes have a chance to intervene before the sample is collected.
Renato Canova wrote:
The facts are very clear : everybody who wants to know facts, and not suppositions, has only to go in the IAAF website, looking at numbers of tests (in and out competitions, both for urine and blood), so can PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY to see the truth.
It's been explained to you many times and you seem to understand.
So now I'm just presuming you're lying in order to defend the indefensible.
The IAAF is responsible for the testing of nations that can't be trusted with their own anti-doping. Particularly those nations that seem to have no remorse or limit to how much they're willing to cheat in order to succeed.
That's why Russia, Kenya, Jamaica and Ethiopia appear high up these lists.
Still doesn't mean the IAAF are doing adequate testing, particularly with the whole 'advanced warning' scenario.
Rosa's group recently invested in their own blood testing machine, the first of its kind in kenya
That's very convenient with the introduction of blood testing
Is the machine purchased to prevent doping or help evade testing positive, that is the question?
......more Renato Canova nonsense ....
.......Good news that Renato was absolutely correct about the 26 missed doping tests by the Italian athletes being due to administrative errors!
...so far, 0 athletes have been sanctioned by CONI.....
....because of very good explanations such as : cell phone app problems, email problems, and faulty fax machines.....
.......Hilarious!........You can't make this stuff up!!!........
......It was unfortunate that when I tried to point out more of Renato's nonsense arguments about EPO and blood transfusions on the old "does EPO help mid- distance thread"....
.......... all of my posts were DELETED by the LRC moderators!!!...........
............Renato also stated that the infamous Dr. Conconi ....known for the use of blood transfusions, introducing the use of EPO to cycling, and the teacher to Dr. Michele Ferrari (Lance Armstrong's doctor)........was actually just a minor figure in Italy!!....nobody paid much attention to Dr. Conconi!..........of course Dr. Conconi was never disciplined......but he was found 'morally guilty' by an Italian judge.....
.........They sure got tough in Italy with punishment of Dr. Conconi!!!!...
............Go Renato!!!!.................
If there is somebody speaking "nonsense", are you, when in another thread (regarding the blood values of Paula Radcliffe) you make the history of doping, involving names such as Bordin and Baldini, who NEVER had any contact in their life with Conconi.
Of course it's easy to think that, since in Italy there was somebody studying the effects of EPO, and using self-transfusions with some of the athletes, ALL THE ITALIAN are involving in this procedures (athletes and coaches).
May be like to think that, because of Guantanamo, ALL US CITIZEN are specialist to use any mean for having informations, or because some crazy student from some University goes to kill 20 teammates for unknown reasons, ALL THE US STUDENTS can be potential killers.
You speak about a lot of things you don't know, or you SUPPOSED to know.
I don't want to go again to speak about my STRONG convinction that EPO doesn't work for top athletes. I well know all the researches scientists did, and the fact I know can only make stronger in my mind the fact I don't believe in their final reports, because they studied other type of "animals", in different conditions, with different attitude, different training and different results.
The category they studied is not homogeneus with elite athletes, and all the data they have are not tranferible to elite runners.
For example, I ask you one question : can you explain why, after a strong storm lasting 20' - 30', athletes can achieve results, in middle distances, that never where able to achieve before ? This is, for example, what happened when Antibo bettered th Italian Record of 5000m (13'05") and Nadia Dandolo the NR of 5000m (15'05") in 1990, after 30' of strong rain ; and the same thing happened a lot of other time in the international activity.
So, how do you explain this situation, with all your scientific knowledge ?
I wait youe explanation, they I can write again.
rjm33 wrote:
......more Renato Canova nonsense ....
.......Good news that Renato was absolutely correct about the 26 missed doping tests by the Italian athletes being due to administrative errors!
...so far, 0 athletes have been sanctioned by CONI.....
....because of very good explanations such as : cell phone app problems, email problems, and faulty fax machines.....
.......Hilarious!........You can't make this stuff up!!!........
"il mio cane ha mangiato la mia notifica!"
...I will guess that you would say the answer is: increased ozone formation from the storm as an explanation......
....It is interesting you mentioned Salvatore Antibo, who won the silver medal at the 1988 Olympics as well....
...Renato stated in the other thread that Antibo had done blood transfusions before the year 1985, when they were banned (although there was no test for detection).....and Antibo then stopped blood transfusions after that ....because he found training at altitude was more effective than blood transfusions....
You see reader.... Renato states that like EPO, blood transfusions can either improve aerobic performance, have no effect, or even decrease performance in some athletes (like some Italian swimmer he mentioned)....it depends on individual response...and in the separate human species of TOP TIER ELITE KENYANS BORN AND LIVING AT ALTITUDE, AND PERFORMING ELITE HIGH LEVEL TRAINING AT ALTITUDE......there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO response to EPO use...... .....completely different physiology... so ANY STUDY DONE ON NORMAL HUMANS ARE NOT VALID!!!...although there could be some response in lower tier athletes.....
.......Renato has lived in the same room as some of these athletes for months and has assured us that they would not even take an aspirin!!!....
.........(Wow!......this is sounding a lot like arguments by rekrunner!!!)..........
..... Renato also stated in the other thread that 1984 Olympic Gold 10k winner Alberto Cova did do blood transfusions...
.....and that Gelindo Bordin had a hemoglobin value around 12.9g/dl and a hematocrit reading of around 39% when Bordin won the Olympic marathon in 1988.......
.......Are you sure that wasn't just his prerace values from before the blood transfusion, Renato?.....
......What were the after-blood transfusion values for Bordin?.....
......and here is some more background on Dr. Conconi for the readers.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3384528
....................and say Hello to Frederico Rosa!..........
.......who was the manager of Pamela Chepchumba,1:08 half-marathoner and 2:25 marathoner (EPO positive in 2003) and Rita Jeptoo, 2:18 marathoner (EPO positive, weak mind)....and Matthew Kisorio, 58 min half- marathoner( nandrolone positive-doesn't count because it is an anabolic steroid, weak mind).......just a few bad apples that had to be thrown out of the beautiful Rosa orchard!!!...............
..............Go Renato!!!!!!!................
rjm33 wrote:
.....and that Gelindo Bordin had a hemoglobin value around 12.9g/dl and a hematocrit reading of around 39% when Bordin won the Olympic marathon in 1988.......
Those values are from before 2007/09 therefore they cannot be taken as accurate reliable values. Blood testing procedures were not standardized before then ...
Good one!.....Now where have I heard that before???...
.......Renato also stated that 2008 Italian 50k gold medalist Alex Schwazer was clean in 2008 when he won the gold medal.....but like Rita Jeptoo... also contracted a bad case of weak mind disease, just before the 2012 Olympics, where he had a positive EPO test...and had to withdraw. Schwazer then admitted to buying EPO in Turkey. There are also old emails dating back to 2010 or earlier published in a French paper ( the link was on the EPO for middle distance thread) between Alex Schwazer and...............Dr. Michele Ferrari!!!!............Gosh, it is a small world, isn't it!......
What a coincidence!!!........I am sure they were just exchanging pasta recipes........I have heard that Dr. Michele Ferrari has a REALLY GOOD pasta RECIPE!!!........
........by the way....Alex Schwazer's ban ends on April 29, 2016.........so he will be eligible for this year's Olympic games!!!..........Go Alex!!!!...........
.......I hope that Renato stops his nonsense stories about doping and goes back to ....
.......Posting really GREAT TRAINING STORIES on top runners and their training schedules!....Please post more of those!..as many of us here love reading them!..
.......and in my opinion, Renato really is a true 'expert' on TRAINING!!!!......
.............................Go Renato!!!...............
Bingo, rjm33, your answer is correct : because there is Ozone in the air.
But WHY with ozone (O3) athletes can have some advantage ? Because it's easier to extract from air more oxygen, since with O3 there are more chance to take oxygen having the SAME AFFINITY between Hb and O2, because it's a 3atomic molecule and the link among every molecule is less strong.
What happens for athletes living and training in altitude is exactly the same thing. This is the difference between ADAPTATION (for athletes living in altitude, which is for them a normal situation) and REACTION (for athletes going altitude for limited periods from sea level) : in the first case, they increase the AFFINITY between Hb and O2, and are able to catch more oxygen from the atmosphere (so, nothing to do with their ability to TRANSPORT oxygen) ; in the second case, they have the reaction of their body to the worse conditions, producing (not Always, but in 75% of cases) the increase in the number of erythrocytes, and consequently enhancing the hematocryt.
Till when scientists don't go to study IN SPECIFIC WAY the effects of REAL training (that is not the one used when they call "well trained athletes") in altitude, they can't see many situations typical of top athletes living and training at the maximal intensity in high altitude :
1) They are able to maintain, for more long time, high HR without accumulation of lactate, because their blood has little viscosity, and there are less periferal resistances
2) They don't have very high Hct, but bigger MCV than athletes of sea level
3) Because of the higher velocity of the circulation, they can remove lactate from their muscle fibers FASTER than athletes of sea level
4) And, of course, when they go to compete at sea level, they have the advantage to have more oxygen to transport, compared with the quantity the athletes of sea level can transport.
With EPO, we can have bigger lorries for transporting oxygen, going at slower speed than small lorries, and the big lorries are not full of oxygen to transport, because the ability to catch oxygen from the atmosphere is the first step (that is less effective in the athletes of sea level), so to have a bigger lorry is useless, if we don't have enough material to transport.
And now, for you, one anecdot about Bordin. In 1988, we went in Mont Basset (2400m), before Olympics, for a training of 52 km lasting 3 hours, with his coach Luciano Gigliotti and two other athletes (Giuseppe Miccoli and Walter Durbano), that we removed from the Jeep alternatively every 5 km, for running with him. That day, we had all the four seasons in the first 2 hours, starting with two training suits (5 degrees at the start), and removing the singlet after 2 hours (32 degrees). One hour after finishing training, we were back in the Hotel, and Gelindo had a terrible headache, so I went to the pharmacy for buying something specific against headache. I came back to the hotel, went to Gelindo giving him one tablet, and he asked me : "What is this ?", "It's something for your headache". "I don't want anything : I want to see who is the winner between me and my headache !".
This was Gelindo Bordin : not auto-transfusion, not pharmacs and not supplement, but a "wild" mentality, who is at the base of ALL the top Champions in endurance events.
................................. Go irm33 !...........................................
Renato Canova wrote:
The facts are very clear : everybody who wants to know facts, and not suppositions, has only to go in the IAAF website, looking at numbers of tests (in and out competitions, both for urine and blood), so can PERSONALLY and DIRECTLY to see the truth.
Year 2015:
369 total ABP tests for the whole year, worldwide.
535 total EPO tests, presumably urinalysis.
122 HGH tests, total, worldwide.
Multiply those totals by 0.37 and you get an estimate of the total distance athletes tested worldwide for 2015. That means about 136 ABP tests, total, for distance, worldwide.
Amusingly, they produced a table of the countries testing frequency and Kenya is on top, claiming 360 tests. We know those are urine tests, and we know they aren't ABP or HGH tests.
Yeah, so the IAAF released a 2015 testing statistics report.
www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=95282d10-3260-4ff9-820c-b3c6282f0ea9.pdf&urlslug=2015%20Testing%20StatisticsIf that link doesn't work, go here and scroll down for the report.
http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/documents/anti-doping..............Oh my!.............
................(Does rekrunner have an Italian relative?).....
Even though I said that I guess you will say the correct answer would be ozone....unfortunately... that would probably not be the correct answer in terms of physiology..as the amount of ozone in the air would probably be only about 1% of total oxygen in the air, so the effect would be minimal. My guess would be that any actual physical effect might be due to a slight decrease in air pollution from the ozone and negative ions after lightning... cleaning the air a little...making the air feel 'fresher'...but it could just be a mental placebo effect as well.
Almost all of your other physiology explanations are not correct...at least in terms of physiology textbooks and studies of the normal human species that I have read.
For example, you can check any basic physiology text which shows that with altitude training there is DECREASED affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen. The hemoglobin is already almost fully saturated with oxygen in areas of high partial pressure of oxygen, such as the lungs... and has low affinity and saturation at the muscle tissue level, where the partial pressure of oxygen is low. This is so that the hemoglobin picks up the oxygen at the lungs and unloads the oxygen needed by the muscles at the tissue level.
This is seen in the physiology textbooks as the oxygen-hemoglobin disassociation/affinity curve. With altitude training, there is an increase of 2,3 DPG(diphosphoglycerate) in erythrocytes, which shifts the curve to the right, which then decreases the affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen and increases the unloading of oxygen at the low partial pressure of oxygen levels at the muscles, which is an adaptation by the body from altitude exposure to increase tissue delivery of oxygen.
Viscosity and peripheral resistance effects as well as circulation velocity effects would be negligible, until the hematocrit goes up to past 60 or 65%, when strokes or heart attacks could occur. An MCV effect on the RBCs(lorries) would also be negligible. Both RBCs and plasma volume will increase, so effects on hematocrit will usually show a moderate increase or even very little change. Hemoglobin levels will only increase about 4 to 6%, rarely up to 10%, even with prolonged altitude exposure. The most important effect of EPO is on the number of RBCs, not the size of RBCs (MCV or mean corpuscular volume).
Many of the adaptations to training in general (and altitude training) that increase VO2max (which is a measure of oxygen consumption) and increase lactate clearance and lead to increased lactate threshold levels take place inside the muscle cells....myoglobin increases, which transports oxygen inside the cell to the mitochondria. AMPK (AMP-activated protein kinase) increases levels of PGC1alpha (Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma co-activator 1-alpha), which is the major factor which controls new mitochondrial synthesis in our muscle cells. More mitochondria, with more citric acid cycle enzymes, and more oxidative phosphorylation enzymes of the electron transport chain (located on the inner mitochondrial membrane), which is where most ATP is produced, (which is the fuel for muscle contraction) and thus....more ATP fuel is generated for running faster aerobically (of course meaning-with oxygen).
So rather than greater affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen, the important adaptations are inside the muscle cells at the mitochondrial level, in addition to other changes such as a larger,stronger heart; with increased stroke volume and increased cardiac output (which then leads to the much lower resting heart rates seen in endurance athletes)....and probably many other things which I am forgetting at the moment... such as muscle strength changes and neuromuscular adaptations, etc.....
So.... I disagree with your statements on physiology... and that top level Kenyans will have zero response to EPO (or blood transfusions).... Your statements do not agree with any physiology textbook I have read.
You of course can say that the textbooks and findings of science are INVALID for your claimed separate human species of athletes for whom the physiology textbooks do not apply....sorry....but that is a very,very hard to believe claim!!!........(at least for me)......
.........Even though I disagree with almost all of your statements about doping and about physiology.......
.....................I still think you are a true 'expert' at TRAINING METHODOLOGY........
...............with SPECIAL BLOCKS!..... and extending specific endurance...very good stuff!
............Please post some new training schedule examples and training information from some of the top runners you have been working with in Kenya!!!.....
...................Your TRAINING posts are a really fantastic contribution to these boards!!!...............I think they are great!........
......................................Go Renato!!!....................................
..whoops ...wrong spelling!.. it should be oxygen-hemoglobin dissociation/affinity curve... instead of disassociation/affinity curve... (Did you notice the spelling error, readers?).....sorry about that readers.........
You can better explain the situation of tests, if you look at the following numbers :
BLOOD TESTS :
140 Kenya (14% of all tests in the World)
86 Ethiopia
78 USA
41 Spain
37 Ukraine
36 Maroc
35 Russia
26 Germany
25 Italy and Japan
460 Other Countries
TEST OOC for EPO : 535
TEST FOR ABP (Biological Passport) : 369
TEST IN COMPETITION (Urine only) :
386 Kenya (19% of the total test in the World)
228 Ethiopia
146 USA
ATHLETES NEEDING WHEREABOUTS (Registered Tested Pool) with number of tests OOC :
96 Kenya (total of 360 samples, it means 14.83% of all the tests OOC)
69 USA (total 353 samples)
63 Ethiopia (total 170 samples)
37 Russia (204 samples)
18 GBR (81 samples)
I hope that also trollism quits to try to make confusion with his words "I already explained bla bla bla...). The situation is clear : NOBODY CAN CONTINUE TO LIE SAYING KENYAN ATHLETES ARE NOT TESTED BECAUSE IN KENYA THERE IS NOT ANTIDOPING TESTS.
Among the 360 samples OOC for Kenyan athletes, more than 80% were carried out in Kenya, and the percentage of Kenyan samples for building the Biological Passport is about 35% of the total tests in the world, looking at this target.
I repeat again, because it seems many people don't want to understand, thinking the reality is what they have in their mind, and not what REALLY are the facts : one thing is to say that the domestic antidoping agency doesn't work (this is correct), another thing to support the widespread idea that Kenyan athletes are not tested, BECAUSE IS NOT TRUE.
The real problem is that 85% of Kenyan athletes positive for some doping are not in the RTP (registered Tested Poll) BECAUSE ARE WEAK for the parameters of international athletics, and are weak for the parameters of Kenyan athletics. Marathon runners running 2:08 are not in top 50 in the World (last year there were 51 athletes under 2:08), and are out of top 30 in Kenya (30 athletes under 2:07:54), and this means that THERE IS NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD GOING TO TEST OOC SOME ATHLETE THAT IS NOT IN TOP 30 OF THE COUNTRY.
I don't want to defend Kenyan athletes, I want only that people can know the truth, and around Kenyan doping and antidoping 95% of the popular feeling comes from mediatic bullshits, in some case specifically build in order to have some scoop (so, nothing to do with the investigation in Russia).
Sorry, rjm33, but the reality is that "Responders" to altitude training don't show an increase in the level of Hct and Hb, but instead are able to increase the ability to catch more oxygen from the atmosphere.
And this is due to the INCREASE of affinity between Hb and O2.
The researches you are speaking about, that you can find in the physiology textbooks, are not referred to people having some hard activity, but to people simply STAYING in altitude.
When you, because your activity, need more oxygen, the body learns how and where to look for having more material, in this way increasing the ability to take this gas from the atmosphere. This is what happens in athletes "responders", and is what doesn't happen in "not responders", who follow the trend explained in your textbooks of physiology.
I had, in 2014, a clear proof of this. I was for two following months in a training camp in altitude (Duoba, 2400m) in China with 22 athletes, preparing Asian Games, and I could use a very good lab which is among the facilities of the Center, for weekly blood tests with all the athletes of the Team. This because, for the first time, I had the opportunity to follow the development of the blood values step by step, not only with tests before going to altitude, then immediately going back sea level.
The results were very interesting. Many of them had a good percentage of enhancement of their values, specifically Hct and Hb, but some of them didn't show any real change in the most part of the tests we did.
Who were the "responders" ? The one not showing any change, since they improved dramatically during Asian Games, moving from 2'07" to 1'59"48 in 800m (Zhao Jing), from 15'55" to 31'53" and 15'12" (Ding Changqin), and from 9'57" to 9'35" in steeple (Li Zhenzhu). ALL THIS ATHLETES COMPETED WITH VALUES LOWER THAN BEFORE GOING ALTITUDE.
At the same time, several other athletes showed a clear increase in the values of Hct and Hb, AND NOBODY OF THEM WAS ABLE TO IMPROVE THE PERSONAL BEST (not responders).
People must put in their mind that the reason because we go altitude is to put the basis for running faster, not for increasing Hct or Hb.
It's a FALSE SUPPOSITION that the results of middle and long distances depends on the level of Hct and Hb. These are the EFFECT of training, not the CAUSE of performances.
So, if athletes can run faster without changing their values, which is the reason ? Is the increase in the AFFINITY between Hb and Oxygen, that happens only for some athletes (the "responders"), but is due to the proper training they can do IN THOSE SPECIFIC CONDITIONS.
About other changes (for example, larger, stronger heart), you clearly understand this doesn't happen because of training in altitude, but because PROPER TRAINING FOR ENDURANCE in any condition, including sea level. So, this change (which needs long periods of training, about 6 years, so it's not something that can change quickly) doesn't have any root in altitude training.
You say that "The most important effect of EPO is on the number of RBCs, not the size of RBCs (MCV or mean corpuscular volume)".
Again, there is a misunderstanding, between REACTION of athletes going to a new condition (coming from sea level), and ADAPTATION of athletes living and training in that normal condition. I can assure you that, in the second case, THERE IS NO INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF RBCs, BUT IN THE SIZE OF RBCs (MCV).
The problem is that all the text books of physiology speak about differences from sea level and altitude using as subjects sea level persons, and not top athletes from altitude.
So, it's not true that "textbooks and findings of science are INVALID for your claimed separate human species of athletes for whom the physiology textbooks do not apply", but that are INVALID for ALL PEOPLE LIVING IN ALTITUDE, WHO HAVE ADAPTATION AND NOT REACTION TO NEW SITUATIONS.