Minimalist, what was your experience?

ditto here wrote:

switched to flats on the "advice" of this board.

8 weeks later, stress fracture in the right tibia (never had a stress fracture in 12 years of running, 4 @ a DI college).

took some time off, moved, got a different job. 6 month later, tried running again - ran for 5 weeks with a max of 18 miles a week and picked up a metatarsal stress fracture in the left foot.

when i do return to running, its the brooks beast for me.

I cannot overemphasize the need to take it very slowly. The ideal time to transition is actually coming off an injury, as you're building up from zero anyway.

What are your thoughts of the above passage on high heels, thick midsoles, and injuries?

Well, see other post, but I'm

(1) not in favor of high heels,

(2) in favor of choosing thick midsoles if running on hard surfaces (I personally wear mizuno precisions for this, which some here might call "minimalist", but I don't),

(3) I don't think there's much besides observations/anecdotes either way on the injury front. But my observation is that when flats people do get injuries, they seem to be in the forefoot.

but why would that forefoot need padding?

Because it hits the pavement 100,000 times a week.

The bushmen of Namibia chase down zebras after hours of on foot pursuit,

Their feet do not hit the pavement 100,000 times a week. They weren't training for marathons either. Greyhounds get stress fractures, and they don't wear high heeled shoes.

Doesn't virtually all of Japan train in minimal shoes?

I doubt this claim would survive much scrutiny. How much is "all" ? How minimal is "minimal" ? I see so-called "minimalists" here who wear shoes with a 12mm drop. That in my mind is not "minimal".

What's natural about wearing shoes? ;-) jag

Well, I agree, but I'm not attempting to champion "natural" running (whatever that means)

What makes you feel so secure about having 22/12 heel to toe cushioning? Do you assume that you are able to achieve optimal biomechanical efficiency in a 1 1/2 heel? If so you are only kidding yourself. When running in less shoe whether it be the NB900,Streak XC, or the Puma H streets you are able to have a more efficient biomechanics which is the key to running more injury free regardless of the miles run or the surface run on period. Sure, running if flats does not make you superman or mean that you are going to break world records, but no matter whether you run 2 miles a week or 150mi per week you will be more efficient and more injury free than if you did that same mileage in a regular training shoe such as Pegasus,Gel-landreth,Gel-Kayano,Gt-2100 etc..

trackhead wrote:

how many would you like?

How about one?

What you've pasted is a survey paper that presents no original research. The cited references may or may not support the statement that knee injuries are reduced. One hopes so, but you'd be surprised how many shoddy papers there are out there, in peer-reviewd journals as well as in athletics coaching publications.

Now suppose that large amounts of careful experimentation lead one to the conclusion that very likely running in flats reduces the rate of knee injury. That does not mean that the overall rate of injury does not increase.

So what is your position? is it only knee injury, or is it that overall injury rate decreases? FWIW, I'm not hostile to the idea of running in flats, but if you are claiming that running exclusively in flats reduces overall injury rates is a well established by scientific study, I'd like to see some better references than that.

You raced in the pegasus 02' or you trained in it?

On transitioning:

1) Find a shoe that works. It needs to fit well and not cause any overpronation.

2) Start out slow. I was coming off an injury and starting with 10min a day.

3) Barefoot running on grass, about 10-15min at a time, 2-3 times per week. This was huge in developing strength and technique.

So what are you going to do now? Will you try wearing flats for more than speedwork, or do you prefer to stick with what you know for now?

Flats for speedwork. DS racer (barely a flat) for treadmill, and jogging on rubberized track. Lightweight trainer for everything else. Once I've worn out my lightweight trainers (I have a years worth) I'll re-evaluate. But I'm doing just fine wearing what I'm wearing, so why change ? For me it's a good combination. I like to have flats for speed work, because I think it's important to train in the shoes you'll race in, and you will race faster in flats.

I also think the 20 miles in flats improves the way I run in trainers -- a lot of the problems experienced by people who train in shoes boil down to weak feet (e.g. injuries traced back to heel-striking and/or overstriding). But I give my feet a good workout a few times a week, and have a very light, fast turnover (about 190/min compared to the "normal" 180/min or the "newbie in the gym" 150/min) so I'm not worried about this.

Common sense does not need to be peer reviewed. The less shoe one wears the better the efficiency. The better the efficiency the less likely one is to get knee injuries. Higher heeled trainers create more shock up the lower leg into the knees, and also inhibits a proper mid-foot to forefoot transition because of the excessive heel. Why do you believe shoe companies blinded that more shoe is better for your knees when there are many studies which show this to be false.

If letsrun was a person I'd punch him in the face.

I switched to flats 2 weeks ago, first week was a down week to get used to them, ran a nice 4:16 PR in the mile that weekend. last week I was just under my usual mileage but mid into the week my right foot was hurting like hell.

Went to the doc and found out it was a fracture in my third metatarsal. What's worse is that my coach got on my shit from the first day I showed up in flats, and I gave him all that shit jaguar and trackhead be posting. Now I have to show up to practice tommorow and tell him.

FUCK YOU LETSRUN

elflord, considering I'm someone with "vulnerable" bones to crack, how do you explain that I had 7 stress fractures with trainers and/or orthotics, but I've had none from running more mileage in flats the past year? To say that increased cushioning "protects" you from chronic stress injuries has not worked in my case.

Most likely, I used to "pound" the concrete in trainers, whereas now I step "lightly" in flats. This concept can be illustrated by comparing my first pair of Puma H Streets (got around 250 miles out of them) to subsequent pairs (~400 miles). You can hardly hear my feet touching the ground.

I agree that probably the best time to make the switch is when coming back from a layoff or when you're running lower mileage/intensity. If you're already at high mileage/intensity, you simply have to be more careful with changing anything, such as shoes. It's amazing how your body can adapt to any new stress, as long as it's gradual. I think with experience and learning from your injury mistakes, it teaches you to be more patient, listen to your body more carefully, and take your easy days EASY. Recovery is key.

So you blame your stress fracture on the flats?

When running in less shoe whether it be the NB900,Streak XC

Hang on there.

My regular training shoe is about the same weight as the NB900, and isn't posted. The NB900 is just fine as far as I'm concerned (except for the fact that it's posted). If the NB900 really, truly does have the same heel:toe drop as a flat, then that would make it exactly the sort of shoe I'm advocating (again, except for the fact that it's posted) The heel:toe ratio I'm recommending -- 22:12 -- is the same drop as most flats.

Good posts, guys. From what I can tell, flats have certainly worked for some yet have not been so successful for others. In light of that, I will proceed with caution.

In my oh so very unbiased and completely subjective opinion (smiley face), I beleive that training in flats should be a much more natural way to run and be much better for the body. However, we have been living very "un-naturaly" our entire lives and years and years of tightening and atrophy have made it very difficult for many to make the transition away from trainers. Not only have our bodies adapted to running in trainers, our bodies have also adapted to being seated for 80% of the day which has had dramatic effects on our biomechanics. Most of us are considered by our peers to be "very active," however we are not nearly as active as our bodies were designed to be.

OK, I'm finished with my diatribe.

Pissed Off wrote:

I switched to flats 2 weeks ago....

It takes weeks/months for a stress fracture to develop. Our bones are constantly remodeling, which means if you introduce a new stress when your bones are weak and need recovery to rebuild, they could be vulnerable.

Dude, that sucks. You can't just switch like that....down week or not. I'm thinking of starting with 10 miles of my runs in flats and then adding maybe 5 a week until I'm fully transitioned. The whole process should take 3 or 4 months.

I believe that the running involved for the Bushmen to take down the zebra is about 6hrs.

I'll admit that I'm skeptical about the authenticity of some of these "me toos" but I asked for them so I'll accept that people are being truthful and stand corrected.

But I don't really have a lot of sympathy for you "Pissed Off". Nobody forced you to switch to flats. And by your own account you appear to have disregarded the caution that continually gets thrown out that you are supposed to change over GRADUALLY. Not just switch over in a day or a week. It took me months.

I ran in trainers for 20 years. I could go back to them tomorrow. But I started moving to flats a little over a year ago and immediately felt better. My Plantar Fasciitis which had been bothering me for 8 months disappeared. I had an excellent year in them. Trained consistently without one injury until I sprained an ankle on a curb and then, like an idiot, tried to run through it.

If you want to try them, by all means. Do it sensibly. If they don't work for you, I'm sorry for you, but don't blame the rest of us who have had a better experience.