Do elite train in flats?

You wore those shoes and ran those miles for me? I'm honored.

Signed, the Grammar Police

i'm not at all elite, but o.k. (14:47 5k) trained in nb 750s (a racing flat) for six weeks after a 6 week transition, and am now recovering from a stress fx in my 2nd metatarsul. i'm totally neutral/forefoot & don't overextend. at any rate, i now run now with 70 year old ladies in the pool which f&xking blows.

if you "tranisition" - do it very slowly, over a year. for me, i'll stick to my light neutral trainers (nb 900).

rcb

Yes, your biomechanics do change when running barefoot. They change because without the shoe to absorb the force of impact, and spread it across the surface of the shoe, your foot must rely on absorbing the impact by accentuating the pronation response and taking as much of the strain in the connective tissue of the arch. It is not that the flatfooted landing when barefoot distributs the impact across more of the foot than heel landing in shoes, but without the shoe materials to distribute these forces more evenly, the foot must try to compensate by landing as flat as possible and quickly rolling inward to spread the arch. Yes, your foot can absorb more strain forces than it is asked to when wearing cushioned shoes, but how much more? That answer is going to depend on the individuals weight and the architecture of the foot and lower leg. There is likely not any advantage to an elevated heel, but many if not most runners need more cushion than they get running barefoot or in minimal shoes.

While we're all kneeling at the alter of the famed biomechanics "expert" Dr. Yessis, perhaps we should take more of his advice and start using the resistive breathing device he endorses while training:

"One of the best resistive breathing devices to use for forced expiration is the Sports Breather. In essence, the Sports Breather is a small device with a mouth piece and adjustable openings for air to enter and exit. With this device you can increase the resistance in both inhalation and exhalation, which forces the muscles to work harder. Preliminary studies have demonstrated the great effectiveness of this device in increasing chest size and in decreasing waist size. In addition, the Sports Breather helps to improve sports performances, especially in those sports that require endurance."

Michael Yessis, PhD, Kinesiology of Exercises, ( p.74)

I am not going to get into an arguemant about the merrits of training in less shoe but I will answer the original posters question.

Not many "elites" train in flats, or less shoe. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.

I claim to be a fairly good coach but I will not claim to be able to train the top men and women. I have never done it but would jump at the chance to. I am confident in my coaching skills but would never lay claim that I could do a better job than fellas like Renato and company, but...

I would, in a heartbeat, change the shoes that top level runners use. I am 100% sure of the method that I use in regards to footwear. To me there is NO arguement and I will not get into one about it. Current running shoes are the WORST thing to happen to runners, ever.

I was fortunate enough to see Lydiard speek here in Boulder just before his death. He mentioned that NONE of his athletes EVER had achilles problems. That is quite a claim to make considering how many runners he coached and the degree of intensity that those runners were involved in their training. These were no 40mpw weekend worriers. he has said that running shoes should be no more than thick skin. The shoes he liked were a simple thick piece of rubber under foot and he thought roads were better for training, better power transfer.

It is scarry tp me how much so many runners could improve by switching their footwear, and not just us lame 16 flat 5k dudes. Paula would be a better runner if she switched to better shoes. Geb and Kenny would be better runners if they switched shoes. I would not hesitate for a SECOND to switch them.

Final note: it is NOT about running in flats. Most flats are NO GOOD FOR TRAINING. They are still too high off the ground and have too much drop from heel to toe. I would not recomend "flats" to most people without seeing them run in them.

You want a good shoe? Take your favorite spikes to a shoe repair shop and have them grind off the spike plate and attach a Vibrum outsole to it. Costs 40 bucks and will last you a good 2000 miles. Those are trainers that I will recomend to ANY runner. The transition to running in them is a much more complicated issue and does come with its risks but once you are adjusted you will not be able to comprehend how you ever ran in regular trainers or even racing flats. I cant even wear flats anymore. there is just too much to the shoe. I have a pair of the NB 205's that I tried to run in the other day and my achilles started to hurt after less than two minutes. I put my converted spikes on and the pain went away.

LaWoof

rcb,

that sucks. I'm sorry for your position but dont give up on the "less" shoe. I would be willing to bet that the stress fracture came from the fact that the 750's are VERY poorly shaped.

900's are as good as most flats so you really ARE training in flats. They just happen to be heavier. If you are doing well in those, get a pair and take a razorblade and a dremmel tool to them to get the weight down so you have something to race in.

Train in what you race in.

LaWoof

I am certain asics headquarters thanks you for your trust in there product and for supporting there piggy backs. P.s. don't forget to get another pair every 3 months.

LaWoof: Why not just use the H Streets? They essentially are a spike without the spike plate.

By the way, what spikes do you recommend?

The H streets are great. I have a pair that i use quite a bit. The two problems they have is that there is no heel counter and the outsole SUCKS for anything but dry roads or trails.

Shoes need a few things:

1: flexablilty. The foot needs to be able to do what it wants.

2. Good outsole. Depends on what you are running on. Good grip is a factor in development of the stride, strength, and overall conditioning.

3. Good shape. The shape of the last needs to be shaped like a human foot, or better, your foot.

4. Upper structure: The upper needs to be able to hold your foot on the platform AND with the shape of the last. Many spikes and flats (like the nb 750's) are too curved. Heel counters are key to holding your foot ON the shoe.A strap across the midfoot, close to the met heads hlods the front of the foot in place. You get better ground movement and power/energy transfer this way. Note: it is NOT supporting the foot just HOLDING it on the shoe in the proper place.

Good spikes. Just about anything from Nike. The Rival MD and D are great shoes. If you can get the old DIII's off eastbay, those pups rule.

Many of the NB spikes are too curved but if they fit you...

Brooks new spike looks very nice but I have yet to have enough money to get the ones that trackhead has had on hold for me for about two months.

Saucony's new spikes look good as well.

ASICS top end distance spike is very nice for this. Cyberperminance?

Reebok has a good spike.

Just go with what fits you the best and has little to no structure. Make sure you get enough toe room. Dont size them like you would a race spike. Your toes need to be able to spread, so size them like you would a trainer, about 1cm of room.

I will be putting a new outsole on my H streets when I get a few more bucks. those and the Brooks will be my shoes for this year. I would also like to get the DIII's and the Shifts from eastbay, just because they look cool. I have some Kennedys that are cool but the outsole was done wrong on the strange shape on the heel of the spike plate so I will only use them to race 5000 or less. I also have nb 500's? the $45 one but it is too curved and it pushes my toes under each other.

LaWoof,

what flats on todays market do you like? For example I run in the ghosts racers now, but have no idea what I am going to get when these are done with?

Also for those of us running in the colder areas where the ground freezes, what do you recommend to still get barefoot running in? I though that if I just did it in my spikes it would almost mimmick barefoot running.

Thanks

GS

Great post, and thanks for the advice. Why do you believe that a heel counter is necessary?

The H Street is like an anti-shoe, and I'm amazed by how good it feels to run in it and how good my legs feel afterward. I had been using my Tiger Paws on my off days, but I'm now thinking that the Hs may be better and that the TP's elevated heels put too much stress on my calves.

FL previewer wrote:

Running in flats really messes up my lower legs and feet. ....The only time I've had any trouble was when I raced in flats or did a tempo run in flats (spikes give me no problems at all). I feel like they lack structure and it wreaks havoc on my shins and feet.

This is because your legs/feet haven't adapted to having less on your feet! If you did all of your training/racing in the same shoes (hence flats!) they would not wreak havoc on your legs/feet. Your legs/feet would be adjusted to having less, essentially recover quicker, and be less sore. I know I used to always start getting some sort of injury when going from trainers to flats when transitioning to speed. Now, because I do all of my training/racing in the same shoe, this is no longer a concern. One book (either Lore of Running or Explosive Running) talks about how many injuries may result simply from changing shoes and not being adapted to the new stressor-- if you train/race in the same shoe you don't have to worry about this concern.

Heel counters help, but are only needed to keep the foot in place. My right foot needs a counter in the H Street, but I get on OK by just adding another lace hole arounf the ankle. If your foot is staying put, there is no need for it, but it won't hurt. Becuase I race Tri's I need something that I can put elastic laces in. Without the heel counter the shoe nearly slides off my heel to the outside.

I was in the same place with the TP's and the NB 550's. I had a strange nerve problem in my ass from falling over a gate (that was funny) and when I ran in the flats for more than a few days in a row it would aggrivate it. I thought I needed the little but of cush because I am a bit heavy from my race weight and I was doing all roads. When I switched to the chopped spikes full time it went away. Now I cant tollerate anything but the H streets and the chopped spikes. I'm still a bit over race weight (15lbs, lost 10) and still do a lot of road and have had no problems at all.

Hey Jag,

You're a Boulder girl right? I keep looking for someone else in the H streets on the mesa and other trails around.

I'm so glad to be back home!

See ya around.

Thanks for the reply.

I doubt im the only one wondering this, but you said that if you have the whole shoe shop made spike deal done it will last you 2000 miles. Is that how long the vibrum sole will last or how long before you should get new spikes made with the vibrum sole?

Seems to me that you could just keep getting them resoled with the vibrum as long as the upper material is still in pretty good condition.

Is it really necessary to go that minimal, i mean just run in like i dunno nike waffles? If you are doing well in a flat (ghost racer, cubato, vapor, whatever) why change? I guess I am asking is the end result to be doing your running in like an old adidas adistar, h street , or this created spike?

For those that have just started viewing this thread, I am never going back to regular trainers ever...try running in flats and you'll know why.

LaWoof wrote:

Hey Jag,

You're a Boulder girl right? I keep looking for someone else in the H streets on the mesa and other trails around.

Hey! Actually, I spent last summer up in Boulder, but I'm from Oklahoma. I loved running on all the Boulder trails in my Puma H Streets. Felt great! :) jag

If you are doing well, no, there is no need to change. As long as you race in what you train in. If you are a track runner, there is a need to change, but otherwise no.

The only problem that you end up running into is that shoes come and go. Each shoe moves diferent on the ground and you are running a risk of getting hurt once you cant get Ghost racers again. Being super low allows all the shoes to move the same because its just a slab of rubber. Even the ghost racers have "support"

As far as the chopped spikes, you're right, just keep getting them resoled. I rarely wear out shoes because I just get bored with them. I used to get SO MANY free shoes that it was easy to just try another model. Its kinda fun.

Some of the XC shoes are good but not all. They often dont fit all the well and have strange shapes to the rubber outsole that can cause problems for some. For the most part they are fine but come on, have you ever put on a REALLY nice spike? those things are slippers! They just mold to your foot and dont weigh anyhting. My Kennedy's weight 7.1 oz in a size 13. I didn't even put the lightest outsole on it.

wouldn't it be just as easy to run in a nike racer or a similar cross country spike, rather than having them constructed with the vibrum?

I'd be interested in looking at some of your research, including the clips if they are small files. It sounds like you are looking into some pretty interesting stuff. Personally, I am unbiased currently on traditional shoes vs. flats, etc, but am interested in learning more about the actual biomachanics of both.

Thanks

ewenm wrote:

I presume the mid-foot to fore-foot ratio changes as you speed up. Sprinting is 100% forefoot, walking 100% heelstrike with the rest in between. So the "perfect" bio-mechanical action changes depending on the target speed.

Yes, I believe that's what would happen (although I was not looking for changes in biomechanics based on differences in speed)-- it seems logical that the faster you go, the closer you come to landing on your forefeet. When I did the video clips I tried to go at the same speed for both barefoot and shod (not sprinting, but not jogging). The landing while barefoot was mostly flatfooted. As an above poster mentioned, it appears this is an adaptive response to having nothing on your feet. Ultimately, your feet are able to bend and flex to absorb and withstand the energy and force-- you get more sensory feedback and can adjust your biomechanics accordingly. This is difficult to do while shod, and ultimately your biomechanics (even the upper body) are different to compensate because of your shoes. This compensatory mechanism is not natural for the body. This is all quite prevalent in my video clips. You are essentially "braking" and reducing the forward momentum when you land on the lateral part of your heels while shod. When you land midfooted and closer your forefoot, you maintain more forward momentum ad velocity. I should also mention that during midsupport while shod, your feet are on the ground MUCH longer due to the compensatory pronation that occurs because of the shoes-- when the body is preparing for takeoff while barefoot, the foot is still pronating to a significant extent while shod. This added pronation could be the culprit for a multitude of injuries. If you want to have the ultimate degree of pronation for your anatomical makeup, you will have it while barefoot.