Why no Emma Coburn DQ?

I think adding the word "intentional" to the rule would allow the refs a bit of leeway to use discretion. In this case, there is no way she should be DQed, but the rules call for it. That is stupid and someone should re-write the rule to add a bit of discretion.

I understand that USATF is dealing with American and World records, but if you trip on the rail, the likelihood of gaining an advantage is very low. If it is even slightly deemed intentional, the refs can DQ.

Da Rulez wrote:

Not in Lanes Disqualification’s SHALL BE RULED by the Referee when a competitor:

5. Steps on or over the curb with two consecutive steps of the left foot.

Are you people all stupid or just blind? She only had one left foot step over the rail. The first one, on which she tripped, is clearly still on the track side of the rail. She very clearly didn't break a rule.

DiscoGary wrote:

According to the 2013 National Federation of High Schools (NFHS) rule book

A competitor shall be considered to be out of the lane when : Without being fouled and while running around a curve, steps on or over the inside lane line or curb for three or more consecutive steps with either or both feet.

So the NFHS is a lot more lenient than the USATF, but then the USATF has to oversee world records, and letting people take steps inside the line curb complicates that issue.

I think this is rule most people would be comfortable with.

ANOTHER poorly written rule...

So two strides on the line, one off, two on the line, one off for an entire race definitely would give someone an advantage, yet by written definition, that is legal in the high school world?!?

At the USATF level, one step on or inside a lane line is grounds for disqualification!??!

Are you people stupid? wrote:

Are you people all stupid or just blind? She only had one left foot step over the rail. The first one, on which she tripped, is clearly still on the track side of the rail. She very clearly didn't break a rule.

Before you get so angry, read the rules.

First of all, stepping on the line (rail) is a violation. There is no "track side" of the rail. This isn't soccer.

Second, a single step on or over the line (rail) is an automatic DQ. I am not saying that is right, but it is the rule. OP listed an old and outdated rule.

Don't be so mean.

Are you people stupid? wrote:

Da Rulez wrote:

Not in Lanes Disqualification’s SHALL BE RULED by the Referee when a competitor:

5. Steps on or over the curb with two consecutive steps of the left foot.

Are you people all stupid or just blind? She only had one left foot step over the rail. The first one, on which she tripped, is clearly still on the track side of the rail. She very clearly didn't break a rule.

No they aren't stupid. That's not the rule.

The rule is as follows.

“Each competitor must keep in the lanes outside the line or curb marking the inside of the track, including the curved part of the diversion from the track for the steeplechase water jump. In races run entirely in lanes, each competitor must keep in the allotted lane from start to finish. In races run partially in lanes, each competitor must keep in the allotted lane from the start to the marked cut – in points. Unless a material advantage has been gained or the athlete is in violation of Rule 163.4, a competitor shall not be disqualified if he or she:

(a) Is pushed or forced by another competitor to step out of the lane, or

(b) Steps out of the lane on the straightaway, or

(c) Steps or runs outside of the outer lane line on the curve, or on any straight part of the diversion from the track for the steeplechase water jump.

As someone posted, the problem is there is only one punishment available - DQ or no DQ. It would be like having a basketball game where one fould and you were thrown out.

Are you people stupid? wrote:

Da Rulez wrote:

Not in Lanes Disqualification’s SHALL BE RULED by the Referee when a competitor:

5. Steps on or over the curb with two consecutive steps of the left foot.

Are you people all stupid or just blind? She only had one left foot step over the rail. The first one, on which she tripped, is clearly still on the track side of the rail. She very clearly didn't break a rule.

We are neither stupid nor blind. We are informed. Those are not the USATF rules governing this event.

You can find them here:

Rule 163, part 5

rojo wrote:

I think it's good we are talking about this now as it shows officials use discretion all the time.

Is there evidence that discretion was used?

Did an official see it and not call it? Was an appeal filed and denied? What is it that brings any discretion into the non call?

Looking at the video, I was wondering if we only think she's on the curve because she starts to turn (which causes the stumble).

If you look at the video as she stumbles, her first foot placement (right foot) back on the track in on the correct side of the line which runs straight down the track. Despite this video angle, is she technically still in the lane 1 straightaway? If so:

a competitor shall NOT be disqualified if he or she:

(b) Steps out of the lane on the straightaway

Sheesh, you guys just want more drama. Yes we have rules, and some are pretty unforgiving sometimes, and maybe she should be technically DQ'ed, but come on now. She didn't gain anything by doing that. It was just an honest stupid mistake and she didn't mess with anybody else either. Why should she be DQ'ed and prevented from representing the USA at Worlds when she is obviously the best female steeplechaser? I guess you guys would rather have your drama than have a stronger team for Worlds. Go watch some Friends you drama whores.

Woops, that is the curve -- they are going into the water jump. The straightaway line only extends straight at the opposite end of the track.

Agree it should be a DQ by letter of the law, but selfishly glad we'll be watching Coburn get a medal rather than someone else losing in round 1.

It's an idiotic rule as written. There are so many tiny things that lead to a disqualification if you actually follow the rulebook exactly as written. It would be awful for our sport if 20% of competitors were dq'ed in every race.

A more nuanced rule is needed here. DQs should be limited to (1) intentionally stepping inside the rail, (2) intentionally not getting back on the track as fast as possible, or (3) gaining an advantage. You're almost never going to gain an advantage by taking just a couple steps inside the rail. There's always going to be a break in rhythm that hurts an athlete more than the few inches they might save. The real issue is on tracks without rails, where people routinely run the entire race on the line.

It might also make sense to use an asterisk system, like wind-aided sprints. So you could still keep your finishing place, but your infraction might cost you a record, PR, or qualifying time. That would address the objection that you might possibly have gained a fraction of a second, even if there's no chance your finishing place was affected.

wow, i can't believe that there is so much support here for taking a simple and important rule and adding an element of subjectivity to it.

Yes, we are all glad that Coburn advanced, but if the officials were paying attention, a DQ is issued. Small mistakes cost competitions all of the time! A long jumper jumps a monster PR, but is one cm over the line. Nope, that doesn't count. hitting the board is a skill that is a part of the event. A huge javelin through is just outside the sector...sorry, you need at least a small amount of accuracy for the throw to count.

Is not the entire point of the curb to ensure that athletes are contained inside of it? If you choose to run extremely close to the rail, attempt to nail the perfect takeoff on the final inch of the lj board, have almost out of control throws, try to anticipate the starting gun, etc. you sometimes have to pay the price.

Typical of the topics on this board. Of course, given life by one of co owners of this malicious website. Instead of discussing what a great race Coburn ran, it's all about why her "whiteness" or her looks kept her from being deservedly disqualified. Instead, we can send that college girl to worlds who can never seem to navigate the last water jump.

I was standing along the fence on the curve when this happened. It was very noticeable. I immediately thought, holy cow, she's going to get DQ'd for that!

There was an official about 5 meters away, sitting in a chair watching for just that type of thing, and she raised up the green flag like everything was fine, just like she did on all the other laps.

The more interesting thing to me was why it happened. She must have had a coach standing on the fence just a little ways down from me, because every single lap she looked over to the same spot (to her right, while she was beginning to turn left) and kept looking there for several seconds. That's when she stepped on the rail. She was simply looking elsewhere, and not paying attention for a couple of seconds.

I thought it was interesting because I couldn't figure out what information she would really need to be getting from her coach every single lap, especially at the end of the race when she had already taken over. She obviously knows how to finish the race, just finish it!

She looked over there again on the last lap, though. I was thinking, geez! just pay attention please![quote]Bring Back the 880

bladerunner wrote:

Typical of the topics on this board. Of course, given life by one of co owners of this malicious website. Instead of discussing what a great race Coburn ran, it's all about why her "whiteness" or her looks kept her from being deservedly disqualified. Instead, we can send that college girl to worlds who can never seem to navigate the last water jump.

I don't think there's a single person who's posted on this thread who wants Leah O'Connor to go to worlds instead of Emma Coburn. What a lot of us are saying is that we think this rule is poorly written and should be changed.

Thought experiment; Leah O'Connor is coached by Alberto Salazar, everything else about the women's steeple remains the same. Hypothesis: AlSal would have seen the infraction, protested and gotten Emma DQd.

I don't want to see that kind of hypothesis tested in real life - I want a better rule.

p.s. When I saw the replay on TV, it looked clear to me that Coburn was still on the curve when she hit the rail.

Bring Back the 880 wrote:

Small mistakes cost competitions all of the time! A long jumper jumps a monster PR, but is one cm over the line. Nope, that doesn't count. hitting the board is a skill that is a part of the event. A huge javelin through is just outside the sector...sorry, you need at least a small amount of accuracy for the throw to count.

Is not the entire point of the curb to ensure that athletes are contained inside of it? If you choose to run extremely close to the rail, attempt to nail the perfect takeoff on the final inch of the lj board, have almost out of control throws, try to anticipate the starting gun, etc. you sometimes have to pay the price.

The major difference between your examples here and the steeple is that in field events and sprints, the athletes get another chance. Sure one mark is wiped that may have been the event winning mark, but there is an opportunity to try again (or there were opportunities before). In sprints the first false start is "free" - when they changed the rule briefly people realized how ridiculous it was to eliminate athletes for that small mistake. In this case, it would be ridiculous to DQ Coburn for the small mistake that has no impact on other competitors and she has no chance to correct. Even though the letter of the rule says she should be eliminated, I'm glad she was not.

dkny64 wrote:

Thought experiment; Leah O'Connor is coached by Alberto Salazar, everything else about the women's steeple remains the same. Hypothesis: AlSal would have seen the infraction, protested and gotten Emma DQd.

I don't want to see that kind of hypothesis tested in real life - I want a better rule.

too late:

Yes, by all means bring on the lawyers and their nuances.The dream of codifying all of life is the bureaucrats delusion, expressed in the 176 thousand pages of Federal Regulations and now even intruding into the simple world of track and field. Phillip Howard's new book, "The Rule of Nobody" following on his earlier masterpiece "The Death of Common Sense," explains how the assumption that all behavior can be regulated and specified in detail results in endless conflict and confusion, pettifoggery and bafflegab.No number of "nuances" can cover all the possible contingencies of future races. Officials have to have discretion and authority to use common sense or litigious shysters rule the world.

800 dude wrote:

A more nuanced rule is needed here. .

F the stupid rules as written.

Does she deserve to be DQed or not?