DC Wonk wrote:
I truly doubt that all these athletes are doping without getting caught or accidentally sharing the info with the wrong people.
This.
If they are doping, they likely dope outside of NOP and Salazar's influence. He may be willing to try new untested and potentially sketchy things, but working under a corporation like Nike, he's keeping it legal.
dial it up wrote:
Exactly, NOP bashing on here is one of the most pathetic displays I've seen on these boards right next to some of the relationship threads. Zero failed tests, zero evidence, a great amount of success by people who are fairly likable and American(most bashing is from Americans I would guess based on the population of the board).
I can't count how many threads I've emailed letsrun about and had deleted and its becoming an inconvenience. Provide your evidence, or get a life.
I agree. I understand skepticism and I can't say that I don't wonder about who's clean and not clean, but my skepticism is pretty much towards everyone. At the same time, I'd like to hope that the NOP is clean.
I see no reason to suspect NOP and not suspect Schumacher's group. So we're to believe, according to the general consensus on Letsrun, that Rupp is likely dirty, but Solinsky was clean? Solinsky has 3 5,000m marks better than Rupp's best. Rupp has stayed healthy and had more opportunities to run faster, yet he's a doper and Solinsky isn't?
I loved that the Star Wars Empire Theme was playing during the early part of the 2 mile race.
Rupp, wide range of fast times. At the old age of 28, forever improving his times. Fourteen years of running. High overall mileage. Never injured.
Solinski, narrow range of fast times. Mileage caught up with him. Improvements ceased.
jjjjjj, please never use Regina Jacobs and Shannon Rowbury in the same breath again! Unless that was your internal plan all a long?
Reginia Jacobs was always suspect, facial and neck acne was a tell tell sign not to mention her age. As I recall, she had serious character issues.
wide range... wrote:
Rupp, wide range of fast times. At the old age of 28, forever improving his times. Fourteen years of running. High overall mileage. Never injured.
Solinski, narrow range of fast times. Mileage caught up with him. Improvements ceased.
Rupp, a coach willing to pull him out of races, not push him through possible injuries, keep him on soft trails/alter g/etc, lots of full body strength training, slow mileage progressions, emphasis on proper form, everything necessary for a long career. He aims for goals, but has a coach smart enough to push those goals back months or even years if it risks injury
wide range... wrote:
Rupp, wide range of fast times. At the old age of 28, forever improving his times. Fourteen years of running. High overall mileage. Never injured.
Solinski, narrow range of fast times. Mileage caught up with him. Improvements ceased.
28 is now old?! Tell that to Geb, Meb, Bekele.
Again, Solinsky runs sub 13 3 times, sub 27 once, but he's not suspicious? I don't understand your logic.
Nike make over $1.5 billion (BBC-2010) in selling replica gear to soccer supporters alone each year.
Clubs would drop them like a stone if their athletes were caught doping in a commercially minor sport. It's not worth the risk.
rojo wrote:
I only started really following elite track and field around 1992 but basically my entire life up utnil Farah the dominant person in the 5k/10k was born dominant. Haile then Bekele. No one developed from back half of the world final to being dominant.
You premise requires you to believe that Bekele, Haile, Tergat, Shihane were not doping to be so good so early in their careers. Why would you presume this after the appalling lack of drug testing in EA? Not to be a NOP lover but, if EA was subjected to the same level of testing as USA/NOP athletes the "born great" premise could very easily fall apart. That really is the distinction between NOP lovers/haters - your ability to believe the EAs are now, and always have been, dope free.
You do know that prior to '92 there was such a thing as World Beaters progressing from the back of the pack? Did Lydiard know something that none of the other coaches knew back in the 70s? Is it so crazy that Salazar could be onto something as it pertains to the development of speed?
I'm still skeptical of NOP after the Athletics West teams of the 80s but am even more so of dopers turned agents fleeing to EA.
Original Message @ Author: yuiop
28 is now old?! Tell that to Geb, Meb, Bekele.
Again, Solinsky runs sub 13 3 times, sub 27 once, but he's not suspicious? I don't understand your logic.
"Your" selective logic is flawed. You only see what "you" want to see. You left out--for "your" convenience--Rupp's high mileage, and the length of time that mileage has occurred. Rupp's training miles are at harder pace than other elites.
how bout this for thought wrote:
Maybe they are not cheaters but they are certainty not ethical.
More stupid comments from the peanut gallery
wide range... wrote:
You only see what "you" want to see. You left out--for "your" convenience--Rupp's high mileage, and the length of time that mileage has occurred. Rupp's training miles are at harder pace than other elites.
Pot meet kettle. Any proof that Rupp does higher and faster mileage than other sub 13, sub 27 guys?
To paraphrase Sebastian Coe , If Shannon Rowbury is not clean then there is no hope for anyone. I say the same thing about Levins as well. These performances were great, but not off the charts.
I am very impressed with the snippets of salazar's coaching that gets revealed. He does have some advantages that almost no one else has like the alter G's and perfect diet consultation etc, but what jumps out is that they are training harder and faster than what we are used to seeing.
As merely an observer in the NOP debate over doping, clearly very few people have ever been caught red handed by the tests as the cheaters always seem to be a few steps ahead of the testers. It would not surprise me if the same omerta which protected Armstrong and all the other cyclists for 15 years also existed in running.
What ever happened with the revelations a few years back about NOP runners getting thyroid shots and potentially other hormones legally (from a medical perspective but not always by USADA) under TUEs? It seems like the news came and went, obviously nobody was ever sanctioned.
As posted elsewhere, Nike wouldn't risk losing $billions in sales by allowing athletes in a minority sport to dope.
Adidas makes $1 billion a year in sales through it's association with some of the top 10 soccer clubs in Europe. Nike makes even more.
Randy Oldman wrote:
As posted elsewhere, Nike wouldn't risk losing $billions in sales by allowing athletes in a minority sport to dope.
Adidas makes $1 billion a year in sales through it's association with some of the top 10 soccer clubs in Europe. Nike makes even more.
Yeah it's not as if they built a wing for Lance on their campus or marketed and entire brand for him. Give me a break. They all support doping just like MLB knew that McGwire and Sosa and Bonds were juiced to the gills. It's only after the fact when someone gets caught that they plead ignorance. Wake up.
Drugs would ALLOW you to train harder. You don't automatically get faster.
That's why Rupp's workout post american record in the 2 mile is so suspect to people. Running 7+ miles @ that pace could be an indication of foul play. However, most letsrun visitors are not exposed to many elites training. Not to mention, the greatest american distance runner ever.
Using the argument "He's training harder then everyone else" is not that great of one.
One thing I find interesting in the patience of the Rupp & Salazar in training. Not once did they push the limits too far and cause Rupp to have a stress reaction or tendon strain, ect. They have seemingly have a uninterrupted training block of over a decade. To me, that would be a better "NOP is cheaters" argument then they are just training harder.
duh duh duh wrote:
Drugs would ALLOW you to train harder. You don't automatically get faster.
That's why Rupp's workout post american record in the 2 mile is so suspect to people. Running 7+ miles @ that pace could be an indication of foul play. However, most letsrun visitors are not exposed to many elites training. Not to mention, the greatest american distance runner ever.
Using the argument "He's training harder then everyone else" is not that great of one.
One thing I find interesting in the patience of the Rupp & Salazar in training. Not once did they push the limits too far and cause Rupp to have a stress reaction or tendon strain, ect. They have seemingly have a uninterrupted training block of over a decade. To me, that would be a better "NOP is cheaters" argument then they are just training harder.
Is this all you have for your evidence that NOP is doping?
Pathetic.
"Delusional People"
You are stupid. No where in my post did I state that I believed that anyone in that group was doping. I simply contributed to the conversation without picking either side of the argument.
And because everyone is entitled to an opinion, I will share mine here. I personally believe that NOP is not only bending the rules but breaking them too.
The reasoning behind this opinion is not supported by conclusive evidence. HOWEVER, I've been around the block enough times to know if something smells this funny, it's probably shit. I think we saw a similar situation in cycling only we have not seen someone on the inside share the dirty secrets. The thing that smells funniest to me was the Centro indoor mishap last year. Again, no evidence. Just my opinion, which I'm entitled to have and share.