Best legit 10K in History

"In men who take glucocorticoids, circulating testosterone

concentrations are reduced".

You have just lost all credibility in my book, and believe me before this "Wang is innocent" tirade I really held your opinions in high regard. Shame.

Sammy, before you diss me, come on out to China and observe the training and get to know the athletes yourself.

Think about it.....take 200 gals who were born in the highlands of China: Gals who have lived on clean air, clean food and clean water and have never rode in a car.....train them hard for about 45km per day, lots of Chinese herbal medicine, acupuncture, massage, high and low altitudes....still, 80% will not survive for 2 months.

2 or 3 of the remaining gals will become World Beaters....that is exactly what happened. EPO was not needed at all.

ALSO, keep in mind that EPO is NOT a very cheap substance to obtain. This is a US$10,000 per athlete per year sort of deal. Out here, the average salary is about US$1,000 per year, much less in 1993 out in the hills.

Traditional Chinese medicine is very cheap, but EPO is VERY EXPENSIVE, most likely outta the budget of Ma Junren. Ma Junren was on the outs with the official Sports Governing Federation from the get-go....apparently he is a complete asshole and this is a major reason why his athletes hated him and divorced him and his program after the achieved some success.

OTHER THAN AN ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE TIME, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM THAT WANG JUNXIA WAS ON EPO OR ANYTHING. The circumstantial evidence and the reports, in fact, suggest that she was totally clean.

Jason

Sammy, you once held Jason?s opinions in ?high regard????? Looks you are as big an A-hole as him. I NEVER take the opinions of anyone so self-absorbed and boring as a Jason?..give me a break!

The Chinese were dopers, PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! There are certain nations and certain athletes that scream CHEATS!!! DON?T make me list them all. Jason, was Flo-Jo clean???? How about OJ, was he innocent of murder??? There is no ?proof? she took steroids or that he killed anyone! DON?T BE SO FUCKING NAÏVE AND SO MUCH OF A HYPOCRITE (your KK assertions).

As far as Martin and others, I obviously agree with your ?Chinese were dopers assertions,? but I do NOT agree with your view that ?Paula MUST be clean.? Her recent improvements, running 30 flat (in less than ideal conditions) and 2:18, BY HERSELF, are startling. She is not above suspicion. Maybe she does not use EPO, but what about her tent?!?!?! I HIGHLY recommend you to read the ?epo/tents/radcliffe, why no press?? thread started on Let?s Run by WAZ. You may realize these situations are not so back & white. Read it and tell me what you think.

JasonDoesAsia wrote:

Sammy, before you diss me, come on out to China and observe the training and get to know the athletes yourself.

Jason, I don't see you running out Khannouchi's house (or to Morocco, for that matter) to get to know the athletes there. But that doesn't stop you from calling them "camel-jockey drug cheats", does it. Practice what you preach.

OTHER THAN AN ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE TIME, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIM THAT WANG JUNXIA WAS ON EPO OR ANYTHING. The circumstantial evidence and the reports, in fact, suggest that she was totally clean.

One could say the same for KK. But actually there is more evidence than just an incredible time. The fact that she never came within a MINUTE of that time ever again. That is absurd. I can understand having a peak and running the best race you've ever run in your life. But not even within a MINUTE? Not even in the Olympics?

I guarantee you Paula Radcliffe will come within a minute of the 31:01 she just ran. And that KK will come within the same percentage time as the marathon WR he set in London.

Kurdt,

Never blinker yourself to others opinions -just because you may not hold "some" of Jason's opinions in very high regard don't therefore assume that everything he says is wrong. Also why base the credence of what someone says on whether they are self absorbed or not ? In other words try and broaden your blinkered horizons - take what you want/need from a situation and leave what you don't - but try not to tar-brush everything - things aren't always black and white you know.

Jason,

you wrote about taking 200 gals , training at altitude etc. and you'll have 2/3 world beaters - 2/3 maybe but remember the farce of those Chinnese champs back in 1993 - it wasn't 2 or 3 - you had whole HEATS of women all running sub 4 min for 1500m just to make the final and so,so many of them were never heard of again! It really was and remains to this day IMHO the most blatant example of systematic cheating ever.

I have been wondering this for a while, and it may be indicative of my lack of acronym and internet short-hand knowledge, but what is IMHO?

???? wrote:

I have been wondering this for a while, what is IMHO?

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion

Kurdt

I don't mean to imply that Radcliffe *must* be clean. Rather, I was making a case for my reasons for believing that she was clean, based on what I know about her, her training, her coach, her federation and her performance history. In that context, I'm quite comfortable assuming her legitimacy.

As you suggested, I read (re-read, in fact) the EPO/Tent thread.

At this point, I'm really not sure what I believe, to be honest. It's a fiendishly tricky discussion, and though I detest the cliched "where do we draw the line" form of argument, I can see where it applies here.

If I was to take sides on this issue, however, I would lean towards the legality of the tents, if only because they seem to offer a cheaper alternative to annual altitude training - which in and of itself is a form of competitive advantage that isn't gained naturally by those who don't live there; you have to spend money to do it. (and yes, I know the same argument can be made for shoes, tracks, good weather, diet, etc)

Having said that, I can understand how some could ask why such an artificial process (i.e. the tents) should be accepted and another artificial process (i.e. the taking of EPO) should not. Unfortunately, Weldon's assertion that "one is legal, one is not" isn't enough for me. If it were, we'd have quite a few more overcrowded prisons filled with marijuana smokers. There is an extremely important distinction between illegal and immoral.

Perhaps it's time that we started to think the unthinkable about drugs in sport, although I think the genie is already out of the bottle, in that Athletics has had to wash its dirty laundry in public for far too long, and thus reversing their take on drugs (or ignoring it altogether) would be the final of several nails in the coffin of the sport.

The problem of drugs in Athletics is no worse than that found in football, baseball, American football or ice hockey -- the only difference is the sport's willingness to publicly eviscerated itself. Because of this strategy, we find ourselves (both the intimate fan and the casual observer) questioning each and every improvement, thus reducing the wonder of the achievements for the new fans and athletes that we're desperately searching for.

Martin

I agree

Well she was a cheat then and bares no remorse now.

The Chinese and Gabriela Szabo... A sad time for womans athletics.

Sonia O Sullivan and Fernando Riberio robbed of many medals.