A Serious Discussion of Training in Racing Flats

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do the elites do this - no

I've still got a bump on the bottom of my foot from doing the same stupid thing when I was younger

Sounds like you were a heal striker with flats which is not a good idea. And their are plenty of elites that wear flats along with high level college athletes.

juzkeeprunnin wrote:

Sounds like you were a heal striker with flats which is not a good idea. And their are plenty of elites that wear flats along with high level college athletes.

Care to name any names?

As for me, I've continued to train in regular trainers, but this discussion has renewed my interest. Thank you to those who have shared your experiences, definitely beneficial.

bump

I train in nb 1400s, streak lts, adizero adios, and hagios. I like being able to feel the ground a bit. I used to have foot problems years and years ago before switching to training in flats. Since then, no foot problems. I don't think there is any more to it. Big shoes feel heavy and uncomfortable to me.

It seems like people want details from runners who have trained in flats for a long time, which I think I qualify as, and elite runners, which I do not qualify as. As a lot of threads on flats pop up, I will finally go into much more detail than anyone would care to know.

I started progressing into training in flats in the summer of 2001 after my freshman year of high school. I believe my first pair was either the Nike zoom waffles or Adidas neptune? I didn't do it overnight - at first it was on tempo runs and fartleks and then gradually used them for a greater percentage of my weekly mileage until I was running exclusively in training flats by the end of the summer. This was well before Born to Run or the "minimalism fad" - I just decided to switch because it felt MUCH more natural to me to run in them and didn't force me to run with an awkward form. I would guess I weighed mid to low 130s at the time, maybe 5'9"? Not high mileage as I was 15.

Went through high school doing all of my training in flats without injury. Averaged 65ish miles a week during senior XC season. Highest week during the summer was something silly like 110. Mid distance runner without great PRs 1:57/4:31/10:06. Probably graduated around 145 lbs.

Went through college with only anemia issues, hernia, partially torn meniscus, and a femoral stress fracture. I would attribute the stress fracture to our college team's culture of hammering easy runs from the door (I was used to running the first mile REALLLY easy in high school), but I know some will claim it was the flats. Highest average mileage for 12 week period just over 90mpw. 5' 11.5" (the only person that height in the world) and weighed anywhere from 142-155 during that time. Tried to convert to being a distance runner so many times but it wasn't in my genetics I guess. Finished with PRs of 1:54, 4:17i, 8:55i, 15:22, so nothing special.

For both high school and college, much of my runs were on pavement, for whatever that's worth.

Took some time off, and am back to running again. Even though I'm fat now (170lbs), I still do all of my runs in flats except for the first run after a really hard workout, when I wear Brooks pure flow 3. I'm back up to around 60-70mpw.

Off the top of my head, the flats I've run in:

Adidas Neptune

Nike Waffle

Puma H Street

Asics Magic Racer

Saucony Kilkenny

Saucony Shay XC flat

Some other type of Adidas flat

Mizuno Wave Universe

Asics Blazingfast

Right now I alternate between the Asics Blazingfast and Saucony Kilkennys, using the Brooks Pure Flow only when my legs are very tired as described above. If I could describe to you what it's like to try to run in a stability model shoe after 13+ years of running in flats I would, but it is hell and I literally have to stop running if I even try.

I'm always amazed at how many people just by default attribute their running injuries to having a lack of cushioning in their shoes. Oh well. I will say that, like anything in running, I don't think it is for everyone, and that I benefited from converting at an early age.

Feel free to ask any questions and I'll try to check up on the thread apparently. I am glad that I made the switch but you should do what feels right for you.

what are your thoughts on soft flats with a lot of torsional flex vs stiff flats?so like Nike Streak LT (get super soft after a few miles) vs the Adidas Hagio (much more stiff)??How do you think this impacts the body, running, proprioception, etc??

Again this is based on personal preference, but I used to lean towards the stiffer flats pretty exclusively. Now I usually only use the stiffer flats for key workouts and races and softer flats otherwise.

what are the best flats right now?

I'll give some personal opinion: I like stiff flats and the Adidas hagio 2 has been my fav for a bit now. I think it's perfect and happy to see that Adidas is not getting rid of it.

Hooves wrote:

Shoes of my youth:

Onitsuka Tiger:

G-9

TG-22

TG-23

Nike:

Nylon Cortez

Marathons

Waffles

New Balance:

322

What the hell are Tiger G-9, TG-22 & TG-23? When I ran in Tigers back in my youth, they had names like Marathon (also known as the "Pinto") Boston, Ohbori, Montreal, Epirus, etc. We never called them by Stock/Style numbers.

bumping this thread

im afraid to go into high milage in flats

to the top

ddss wrote:

bumping this thread

im afraid to go into high milage in flats

Okay? What do you expect to hear in response?

Reporting back in after my first college season:

6'3 165 lbs

Size 12 shoe

60-70 mpw

Through most of high school I ran in Brooks PureDrift, but I wanted a little more underfoot, so I switched to NB. I trained in NB1400v1 for almost all of cross country, but I couldn't find any more after my last pair wore out, and the v2 was not my shoe (NB made the 1400v2 a LOT more like the 1600, way to light for me) so I decided to try a real mileage shoe out. Picked up NB890v3, and I'm almost done with those. Not sure where to next, because v3 doesn't exist on the internet anymore.. Anyways, I liked training in flats, but the durability was a huge issue.

Serious post for a serious thread.

I'm a newish runner, pretty slow and low mileage. A 'Hobby Jogger', if you will.

6'

150 lbs

Size 10 1/2 EE

20 MPW

I started running in shoes more at the minimal end (NB MR10v2, etc). Had IT pain at first, got better with training. Went from 10mpw to 25, mostly in flats (Brooks Grid A5 and Mizuno Wave Universe 5). Focused on good form, keeping cadence high, more of a forefoot strike. All on asphalt/concrete. I drank the kool-aid, read Lieberman, all that good stuff.

The increase in volume (and not much in pace) would trash my calfs after running, they would get pretty sore. I thought of this as being a good thing, because it was just muscle adaptation, right? I developed minor achilles tendonosis, basically would feel my heels at the start of a run. If I went out too fast without warming them up for a mile I would sometimes get this sensation that they would 'tweak' and I would kind of hop for the next few steps.

I didn't really recognize it as tendonosis, just thought of like any ache or pain, until it got worse. At one point I felt a small tear in my achilles at the beginning of a run, kind of a popping sensation, that woke me up and I decided to treat it seriously because it was starting to bother me (mild pain while lying in bed).

I started with the eccentric heel drops but it didn't seem so effective. Started adding some serious weight to the heel drops and now I've made a lot of progress, pain is all but gone, positive change. Calves get very sore from the drops but I can roll that out. I always wonder if its the Soleus affected or the Gastroc; probably a bit of both but I try to target the soleus by doing the drops with a slightly bent knee.

That's my story; for what its' worth I think I benefitted a lot from the flats even with the injury. I figure if my achilles went then they were probably too weak anyway from my non-athletic youth, and they just went first as the weakest link. I feel like the flats did a lot to strengthen my legs and improve my form.

The only other issue I had was that on long runs in thinner flats (Universe) sometimes my toes would get numb. That would happen around the 9 mile mark. I wonder if that's from pounding on the nerves, lack of blood flow, or what.

Once a Shoe Guy thanks for starting this thread, LRC can be pretty lame sometimes and this thread is a breath of fresh air.

FWIW This guy on youtube claims thousands of training miles out of the wave universe. They are so thin I guess any compression doesn't change the geometry much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nWUM6HAoMY

He shouldn't have had a Asics shirt while doing that plug for Mizuno. But you're right. I run in things like the Wave Universe, Piranha, Blazing Fast, etc, and you can pretty much run in them until they wear through. What goes on a traditional trainer when it "wears out?" The cushioning as a rule. A shoe with almost no cushioning has almost nothing to wear out.

This thread here is relevant to the discussion and mirrors my experience somewhat.

TL:DR - guy gets crazy sore calves from the switch to flats for training. No real answer.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4079208

skynet wrote:

Serious post for a serious thread.

....

Once a Shoe Guy thanks for starting this thread, LRC can be pretty lame sometimes and this thread is a breath of fresh air.

Good post, food for thought as I've been through the same. The pain is now in my knees instead of the soleus though.