A Collective Effort to Maximizing Potential...or at least to reach the trials

JK maybe you can get a job as coach at Michigan. You sound good at thinking you can tell people what to do regardless of what they want or their needs are.

What I personally look for in an excellent coach is the ability to be supportive and encouraging to my efforts. As you have said, this is not your area of interest or expertise so you would not be a good coach for me or other runners who are looking for a coach like this.

By the way, Arthur Lydiard and Percy Cerutty are in this category, so you are out of line trying to put down any coach who doesn't think the way you do.

once again, another retarded response from dunes runner...

JK,

You stated that Flagstaff is the only hi-mod-lo protocol in the country. How do you define your hi-mod-lo protocol? I lived in Mammoth Lakes, CA at 8,000 ft. and could quickly drive down the road and train at 4,000 ft.

I agree with Dunes Runner's post and I don't see anything retarded about his or her comments.

JK,

I too, much like skeptic, feel you have a lot to add to the sport and believe your coaching methods are right on target. I like your "no nonsense---tell it like it is" approach, but in my opinion, we as human beings all need some sort of external motivation at times and motivating athletes is an important role that a good coach should fill.

People get real.

Nothing in life is free.

Overall, I like distance runners except for the fact that they are CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP!

Get a job and pay for real wisdom in a coach. Peter Snell worked 40 hour weeks with all of his mega-mileage. By the way I don't think that JK is stating it...but a coach does provide motivation and you can't expect for him to spread himself out for free. Its emotionally exhausting.

You just want free knowledge? I got news for you. Most self coached runners FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

A coach is not just knowledge but he/she is situational knowledge. Each situation calls for slight twists that only an objective source as a coach can provide.

A champion mindset means that you are willing you do whatever it takes to succeed. So if you really believe that JK is "your man" to lead you to the promise land then 1. respect what he has to say and 2. pay him out accordingly.

Showing others respect is the same as showing yourself respect. People have to make a living and its not JK's fault that you are cheap. I doubt that he charges that much.

Take things seriously, including your coach.

... You could call them Whitey Whackers!

Simpsons reference, of course. The pretzels represent the inevitable criticism that any post, regardless of content, is bound to draw on these zany message boards. Of course, all you naysayers are free to disagree with anything I say and are free to feel that this training situation wouldn't be the right one for YOU. You're probably right about that last part. But it MIGHT be right for some other runners. Don't bring it down for them by focusing solely on unfounded negatives. I say "unfounded" because you, having never actually come to Flagstaff and trained under this protocol for a few YEARS, seem to think you're qualified to pass judgment on the whole idea.

And is there something wrong with Michigan? If perchance you're Alan Webb, you might have thought it wasn't a good place for keeping you happy, focused, and on pace to meet those intermediate goals that some people find necessary. Or maybe there were other reasons we don't know about. If you're not Alan Webb (or at least a huge supporter of his), why would you take an implicit dig at the Michigan program? Warhurst's record of developing collegiate champions and even Olympians speaks for itself, so it obviously HAS been a good fit for many, even though it wasn't/isn't for others.

Precisely BECAUSE some people aren't suited to certain coaching styles, I'm being up front and honest about the kind of runner that would benefit from MY style and MY ideas so any interested parties will know what to expect. That runner will most likely be a self-motivated, extremely patient individual who loves to run long distances and can tolerate plenty of miles and who can make ends meet financially without having to skimp on training and rest. And I didn't say I was NOT going to be supportive or encouraging; I said I'm not looking for people who require a twice daily inspirational speech to get them out the door or who think that getting psyched up is a substitute for sound training. Nobody's twisting your arm to sign up, so if the kind of runner I'm looking for doesn't describe you, fine. Just give the whole thing a miss yourself, but don't try to discourage others.

I just don't see the point in people trying to find something negative about every idea. Why? To divide and bring down our sport some more? It doesn't make sense. If you're not part of the solution, ...

JK,You can not be serious that "there are about three people in the country who are that dedicated to being their best." I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this...If you were refering to the runners who have approached you to coach them, that is one thing. If you meant US runners in general, then this is the biggest bs line I have ever read on this forum. Tell that to Meb, Deena, Bob Kennedy, Jorge Torres in a few months, Lassister, etc. The list could go on forever.Flagstaff is NOT the only place to get the job done in the US. While Flagstaff may or may not be the ideal location in terms of quick access to many elevations, that does not mean it is the best place for everyone, even if you are a "high altitude responder." "Scientifically," Flagstaff may be the ideal location to train, but the ideal location in the purest sense is not one soley based on pysiological data. The ideal place to train combines many factors and psychological factors are among those that are important. Jorge Torres will be staying to train in Colorado after he graduates. While he may be able to reap some benefits physiologically by switching to Flagstaff, I think that more than a few people agree with me, that if he left Boulder, Wetmore, etc, there would be a far greater negative impact on his running than the slight benefits he would gain by moving to Flagstaff and training under you. For Jorge Torres, Boulder is THE ideal place to train.Also, on a more minor point, I differ that a coach does not need to be a motivator. There are times in which all athletes need some encouragement besides their own inner drive. It's my belief that coaches who are able to provide some type of motivation have more successful athletes than those that are "all business."

I agree with your upfront approach. This way no athlete is ever expecting you to be something that your not. I wish you the best of luck and I love the website so I'll obviously check back to see how your program is building. If you don't have 10-15 takers it might not be that athletes aren't willing to sacrifice enough. It may be that they were turned off by the messanger and not the message. There has been many brilliant minds that could never develop their dream because of implementation. Putting a large sign up is not quite enough but good luck.

Of course, when I say there are three runners who have been willing to make a complete commitment, I'm referring to the runners to whom I've personally mentioned the idea of relocating to Flagstaff and training full-time. Obviously, there are other dedicated runners out there who have devoted their lives to the pursuit of excellence. Kennedy, for example, "wouldn't spit without thinking of how it would affect his running." Now that's my kind of runner.

You are, of course, correct that there's more to the ideal situation than the sheer nuts and bolts of a living/training arrangement, but ... I think it's pretty presumptuous of YOU to say that Jorge Torres would not be his best by moving to Flagstaff and training under me for a few years. I wish we could clone him and put the clone in Flagstaff, because I would be su-PREME-ly confident in that clone's chances!

I guess Mammoth Lakes would not be a bad place for a version of hi-lo. We selected Flagstaff because of the opportunity to go down to Camp Verde and Sedona for threshold training AND to Phoenix for near-sea level training. There is also easy access (by car and on foot) to elevations up to 10,500 ft. which we encourage an athlete to take advantage of to induce an erythropoietin boost.

There is an excellent range of terrain in Flagstaff and at the moderate altitude sites (a number of good trails, long slopes, short hills, etc.). Camp Verde has a cinder track which is ideal for the type of high density repeats that we like to do at or just above the threshold. It's very slow, so times don't really matter as much as finding the right effort level.

Also - this was important - there is a testing facility associated with NAU which we can make use of to check the effectiveness of the hi-mod-low protocol for an athlete from a blood chemistry standpoint and to see if any modifications need to be made.

I can think of 2 OLYMPIANS I know from 2000 that were self coached-and there is this other guy named.. . . Alan Culpepper also that has had a small amount of sucess-and he has no coach. Lets please get back to the purpose here and allow ideas as to how we can all help each other out here so that everyone can achieve.

You young post collegiate serious runners are wacked if you don't jump at an opportunity like this. Having been there and devoted myself full time to running in the 80's I cannot stress how important and valuable that period of time is/was to my development as a person. Now with 2 kids and comfortably self-employed I look back with the fondest memories and pride that I took the chance and committed wholey to something. The work ethic and focus I practiced in those years have helped me be a better husband/father and "successful" in the business world. I still run competitively(in my 40's) and still love the training...no burn-out here.

As for the training program/philosophy. First, anyone who seriously wants to max. their potential has to be crazy to think they can do this while training at sea level. Look at the world lists and count the % that train at altitude. Look at the % non-Africans that are competitive with the Africans that train at altitude.

My observation on training programs over the last 25years is that it's not so important what the program contains as it is that the athlete sticks with the same program(and coach) for the long haul and whole heartedly believes in it. Vastly different programs have weilded equally successful results given that the program was followed and mantained for years & year.

$,partners,kids can all wait....take your shot now while you can!

I would love to take advantage of this and would move out to Flagstaff and train with JK in a minute. However, I was not lucky enough to come out of college without any debt. The only thing keeping me from making this move is the $20,000 hanging over my head. I couldn't possibly find a job to pay rent, food, college loans, and also afford a coach. So, while I would love to jump all over this opportunity, its just not financially possible for me. Unless somebody has some sort of suggestion as to how I could make it happen.

Would love to wrote:

I would love to take advantage of this and would move out to Flagstaff and train with JK in a minute. However, I was not lucky enough to come out of college without any debt. The only thing keeping me from making this move is the $20,000 hanging over my head. I couldn't possibly find a job to pay rent, food, college loans, and also afford a coach. So, while I would love to jump all over this opportunity, its just not financially possible for me. Unless somebody has some sort of suggestion as to how I could make it happen.

What we have here, in a nutshell, is the Great American Dilemma: what to do, work or run? I simplify but the choices aren't far from this. Money. We could talk training & coaching theory for days here but w/out having finances in order, hard to make plans happen. Money. At some point, if you want to run bad enough, you'll FIND a way to get your bills paid and run too. Room w/in a house w/3 others in sustenance jobs and train, train and train some more (as an example).

I still have one year left of collegiate eligibility (grad in june 04), but am still searching for what to do after that. If this opportunity still exists, I would highly, highly consider making the move from california to flagstaff. Just wondering, about how much would the fees be for you (JK) as a coach?

All I would require would be enough to make ends meet (and we'd need operating expenses, of course - travel budget, etc.). That would depend on the cost of living in Flagstaff when (or if) we get the project off the launch pad. Hopefully, there would be some opportunities available so the runners wouldn't have to chip in much, if at all. We might be able to work in a multi-level system that sells nutritional products, for example. It would require some leg work and hustle at first, but it's something that can be done on your own time, and after a few months it's quite possible to make plenty enough money to live on without having to do any work at all. And the parent company might also agree to be a sponsor. I know a couple of people who have gone this route and have made better-than-decent money without having to lift a finger after developing an initial client base. If the runners did need to chip in to pay my salary, it would of course depend on the number of runners we had. Who knows, maybe we'll get some leadership in this sport someday and get some real funding.

In any event, I stand firm on being paid (from some source) for services. It's only fair. Suppose there was a college professor with several degrees and 30 years experience and whose students had gone on to success in that field. That professor would get PAID for teaching. Assuming they could not get financial aid, the students would PAY for the priveledge of being taught from someone who has a thorough grasp of the subject. Some might have to work to pay their way through school, and that would be a sacrifice. Would that professor love his job? Probably. Would that entitle potential students to come up to him and say, "Gee, you know, we don't think it's fair that we should be the ones to sacrifice by being asked to pay money to take your class. We think you should teach it for nothing."? Of course not. To do the same with the PROFESSION of coaching runners is to make a mockery of it and of top level distance running in general.

Anyway, that's where I stand. I guess I didn't answer the original question, but that's because the answer would depend on some of the factors (many of which are only "maybes" at this stage) that I've listed.

The more you talk about money the bigger the whole you dig. All of the examples you give amount to the same thing blah blah blah I deserve to make money. I agree with you but that should never be your motive. As far as leadership in the sport, you are right it is awful but we all know that. DO NOT EXPECT PAYMENT OR ANY FINANCIAL HELP FROM USATF. USATF is a joke so what can we do in spite of our own governing body. Now that pyramid scheme (amway or whatever equivelant) you have in mind, I think we have now answered all of our distance woes. You will not attract enough athletes to make a go of it until you have a concrete plan of financing like Hansons and Farm Team. I do believein your coaching principles but that is just a fraction of what is important.

Where do the Kenyans living on a dollar a day, and trying

to avoid a government that's been ripping them off for 25 years, get the money to move to 8,500 feet for the winter?

I guess, if it doesn't come down to life or death, there's not much motivation to be the best in the world.

If you want to be the best, you will find a way.