Tadese and the Marathon - I don't get it!

I'd like to see Tadese run somewhere where the pace is 63:30-64:00 for 1/2 way. I bet he can then use his 58 min 1/2 marathon speed to run a negative split race. Tadese is a sub 2:06 guy in my opinion, but not when the race goes out in 1:02.

MarathonMind wrote:

Sounds like from what Antonio Cabral writes above that he is overtrained/poorly trained.

Bravo, Tadese spanish coach he have no idea how to train for the marathon and he is just one mediocre coach of every distance event.

Some people thinks Bravo is one good coach. He is just a kid that got the chance to start to coach Tadese one runner phenomenon that at that time he starts to be coached by Bravo, was simply the world best runner without coach.

Before to coach Tadese he was a coach without curriculum or coach credentials, he didn´t coach nobody.

But modern life is made of this. Pure opportunism.

[quote]letsrun from kenya wrote:

I reckon he just doesnt have the patience for the marathon.He loves to run fast and hard which works for distances under 30K but not the marathon.

Excellent point...even the guys running these insane times have to patient. The pace feels really slow in the marathon the first ten miles if you are pacing it correctly.

ventolin baiter wrote:

Oh man, classic Ventolin in this thread!

The guy who came in 4th, 16 seconds behind a winner who jogged it in; the guy far enough behind that he wasn't even on screen for the final 500 meters of the race was in better shape than Bekele on this day? ARE YOU SERIOIUS? Watch this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828BG3poro0

If your calculator leads you to the conclusion the Tadese was the fittest man on the track that day then your calculator is broken.

you clearly didn't see osaka 10k or remember it

somewhere after around 1/2 way or little later, z-ster pushed the pace in front & gradually the lead over kennster got to about 8m ( may even have been 10m )

this was crucial part of race

if that gap had got over 10m, it mighta broken the kennster, with the "elastic band" between them snapping

there is no way kennster wanted to be near 10m behind the main threat, so he was struggling at that point

in the end, z-ster's effort in that heat/humidity probably caught up with him & he struggled late race

however, anyone who saw that race fully wouda had little doubt z-ster was good for 26'20 that day in a brussels/hengelo

With Tadesse reeling off a metronomic sub-2:45 kilometres in the sapping 30C heat and 65 per cent humidity...

Then Tadesse upped the ante even more, going through 8000m with a strength- sapping 2:40 kilometre that suddenly reduced the leading group to four.

Bekele was looking easy but so were Sihine and Mathati, who is based in Japan, looking unconcerned. If he was feeling the pace, he didn’t show it

if kennster was looking easy, it doesn't explain why the gap was getting upto 10m ( the actual 8th was 2'41.8 )

The important thing about understanding Tadese's marathon "failures" is not that he's running 2:10 or slower, it's the manner in which it is happening.

Look at London - he is 9 seconds DOWN at 5km! The pace was not that fast - 14:36 through 5km, and he is already behind by 9 seconds. Then by 10km, he has dropped even further off the group, the gap is now close to 20 seconds. And the 10km split for the top guys is 29:36, which is not fast even in a marathon of this quality, let alone for a man who is running under 59 for a half, regularly

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/04/london-2012-kipsang-keitany-conquer.html

So this is not simply a case that he can't handle the distance, because his problems come before the distance even starts to tell. If he was in the lead group to 30km, and then fell off, fine, we can say it's the distance.

But Tadese is nowhere, right from the start. Similarly, we can't blame things like fuel and energy, because that's not a factor within the first 10km.

If I gave someone these splits, and showed you Tadese's time gaps, at 5km and 10km, you'd put it down as a guy who simply doesn't have the speed to run a 2:05 marathon pace. Based purely on time, Tadese's problem seems to be speed, not distance.

But this can't the best - how is a man who runs 58:xx unable to hold a 29:36 for the first 10km? That should be routine (he may pay later, of course, but to fall off this soon...?)

So I think it's a mental issue, a block, perhaps, against the distance that is affecting him early. Or, as someone else has pointed out, he is getting the training wrong and coming into these big races very, very overdone.

No way in the world should Tadese be running off the lead group within the first 30 minutes when the pace is not even that quick.

good points. However, are there races leading up to London

that indicate what kind of shape T-man was in? He cannot possibly be in 59' shape since then 29:36 is a walk in the park. Illness?

ggg wrote:

good points. However, are there races leading up to London

that indicate what kind of shape T-man was in? He cannot possibly be in 59' shape since then 29:36 is a walk in the park. Illness?

he ran 59:34 is portugal less than a month ago.....admittedly he had a flu in the weeks leading up to that race, but why would he/his coach schedule that type of effort with a marathon on the horizon?

compare that to keitany who ran RAK 2 months out from london

seems like Tadese or his agent is chasing paydays; that, combined with the inability of his coach to translate the success at the shorter distances, are plausible explanations for Tadese's struggles. maybe letsrun can get an intervention and direct Tadese to Canova or Claudio!

david okeyo wrote: ...admittedly he had a flu in the weeks leading up to that race...

the flu in the weeks leading up to the probably explains everything. No need for LR to speculate any further.

end of thread.

ventolin^3 wrote:

if that gap had got over 10m, it mighta broken the kennster, with the "elastic band" between them snapping

there is no way kennster wanted to be near 10m behind the main threat, so he was struggling at that point

in the end, z-ster's effort in that heat/humidity probably caught up with him & he struggled late race

however, anyone who saw that race fully wouda had little doubt z-ster was good for 26'20 that day in a brussels/hengelo

Let me get this straight:

(1) IF the race had been run in Brussels/Hengelo (it wasn't), and

(2) IF Tadesse had been able to open up a bigger gap (he wasn't), and

(3) IF he'd been able to maintain the hot pace the rest of the way and thereby run the kick out of Sihine and Bekele's legs (he wasn't),

Then you think Tadesse would have won and was in world record shape. Lol. OK, let's nevermind the race that was actually run on the track instead of in our minds. I mean, come on, Tadesse opened up a big lead in the MIDDLE of the race!

Reminds me a lot of this Glen Randall kid, maybe you've heard of him. He had a huge lead at the Boston Marathon this year through 5k. Why would he have a lead that early? Everyone was still fresh, if they were fit enough they would have gone with him if they could. Ultimately Glen got done in by the heat - did you notice the winning times, really slow this year due to the temperatures. But still, if only Glen had been able to open up a bigger gap. Maybe in London it would have worked. With a lead that large in one of the world's major marathons, I have to conclude Randall is world class material.

ventolin^3 wrote:

if kennster was looking easy, it doesn't explain why the gap was getting upto 10m ( the actual 8th was 2'41.8 )

Alright, let me be serious for a second. Tadesse is bad ass, and he was obviously making Bekele hurt. But given how badly he died, it seems obvious that Tadesse went for broke too early. He was running that 10k like an 8k. Bekele knew he couldn't hang with that pace so he let the gap open. The problem was that Tadesse couldn't hang with that pace either so he just ended up hurting himself. Again, valiant effort, but it wasn't an 8k. You have to pace yourself for the entire distance. Opening up a lead early then dying simply means you went too hard too fast, so that is how the gap opened.

Again - refer to the finish of that race. Tadesse was nowhere to be found. A guy in world record shape should have been fighting with Sihine and Bekele on the backstretch.

Tadesse one thin guy with this performances doesn´t speed to the marathon ??? What a your brilliant conclusion !

Tadese Zersenay ERI

M 08/02/1982 Adi Bana

Personal Best - Outdoor

Performance Wind Place Date

3000 Metres 7:39.93 Doha 13/05/2005

Two Miles 8:19.34 Eugene, OR 10/06/2007

5000 Metres 12:59.27 Roma 14/07/2006

10,000 Metres 26:37.25 Bruxelles 25/08/2006

10 Kilometres 27:24 Manchester 20/05/2007

15 Kilometres 41:34 Udine 14/10/2007

20 Kilometres 56:01 Debrecen 08/10/2006

Half Marathon 58:59 Udine 14/10/2007

Progression - Outdoor

Season Performance Wind Place Date

3000 Metres 2008 7:45.25 Zaragoza 31/05/2008

2006 7:52.65 Zaragoza 03/06/2006

2005 7:39.93 Doha 13/05/2005

2003 7:43.89 Sevilla 07/06/2003

Two Miles 2007 8:19.34 Eugene, OR 10/06/2007

5000 Metres 2009 13:07.02 Málaga 27/06/2009

2006 12:59.27 Roma 14/07/2006

2005 13:12.23 Sevilla 04/06/2005

2004 13:13.74 Roma 02/07/2004

2003 13:05.57 Paris Saint-Denis 31/08/2003

10,000 Metres 2008 27:05.11 Beijing (National Stadium) 17/08/2008

2007 27:00.30 Alger 19/07/2007

2006 26:37.25 Bruxelles 25/08/2006

2005 27:04.70 Bruxelles 26/08/2005

2004 27:22.57 Athína (Olympic Stadium) 20/08/2004

2002 28:47.29 Radés 07/08/2002

10 Kilometres 2008 27:51 Bangalore 18/05/2008

2007 27:24 Manchester 20/05/2007

2006 27:36 Manchester 21/05/2006

2004 27:59 Manchester 23/05/2004

15 Kilometres 2008 42:02 Rio de Janeiro 12/10/2008

2007 41:34 Udine 14/10/2007

2006 41:47 Debrecen 08/10/2006

2005 42:17 Nijmegen 20/11/2005

2003 43:27 Vilamoura 04/10/2003

20 Kilometres 2008 56:45 Rio de Janeiro 12/10/2008

2007 56:13 Udine 14/10/2007

2006 56:01 Debrecen 08/10/2006

Half Marathon 2008 59:56 Rio de Janeiro 12/10/2008

2007 58:59 Udine 14/10/2007

2006 59:16 Rotterdam 10/09/2006

2003 1:01:26 Vilamoura 04/10/2003

2002 1:03:05 Bruxelles 05/05/2002

Honours

Rank Performance Wind Place Date

5000 Metres

10th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 14 f 13:40.27 Helsinki 14/08/2005

28th Olympic Games 7 f 13:24.31 Athína (Olympic Stadium) 28/08/2004

9th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 8 f 13:05.57 Paris Saint-Denis 31/08/2003

10,000 Metres

The XXIX Olympic Games 5 f 27:05.11 Beijing (National Stadium) 17/08/2008

11th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 4 f 27:21.37 Osaka 27/08/2007

10th IAAF World Championships in Athletics 6 f 27:12.82 Helsinki 08/08/2005

28th Olympic Games 3 f 27:22.57 Athína (Olympic Stadium) 20/08/2004

13rd African Championships in Athletics 6 f 28:47.29 Radés 07/08/2002

20 Kilometres

1st IAAF World Road Running Championships 1 f 56:01 Debrecen 08/10/2006

Half Marathon

IAAF / Caixa World Half Marathon Championships 1 f 59:56 Rio de Janeiro 12/10/2008

2nd IAAF World Road Running Championships 1 f 58:59 Udine 14/10/2007

12th IAAF World Half Marathon Championships 7 f 1:01:26 Vilamoura 04/10/2003

11th IAAF World Half Marathon Championships 21 f 1:03:05 Bruxelles 05/05/2002

Senior Race

37th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 3 f 35:04 Amman 28/03/2009

36th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 3 f 34:43 Edinburgh 30/03/2008

35th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 1 f 35:50 Mombasa 24/03/2007

Long Race

34th IAAF World Cross Country Championships 4 f 35:47 Fukuoka 02/04/2006

33rd IAAF World Cross Country Championships 2 f 35:20 St Etienne - St Galmier 20/03/2005

32nd IAAF World Cross Country Championships 6 f 36:37 Bruxelles 21/03/2004

31st IAAF World Cross Country Championships 9 f 37:10 Lausanne 30/03/2003

30th IAAF/Sport Ireland World Cross Country Championships 30 f 36:37 Dublin 24/03/2002

If this guy got no basic speed to run ten marathon, tehn tell me who does.

You got no idea what´s the marathon requirement. He is one of the athletes in the world with more ability (and speed) to run the marathon.

The only problem is that he trains too fast in daily continuous runs, because for him it´s too easy to run fast, what results in poor marathon training approach. Poor marathon training is the main problem and not mental. Do you really think that one guy that since 2004 did participate in hundred of world top class, at the highest top level of competition, that did the HM record, that did win 4 times the HM world champ, that did win the WCCC over Bekele, and after all this do you really think that Tadesse fears the marathon distance by some mental problem ? What a your brilliant conclusion !

Tadesse is actually one for the runners with more mastery on distance events. If you took a look how total confident he was before the runs and during the warm-up you will change your opinion ?

Tadesse main problem to perform one good marathon run was been that he follows one training schedule that is designed to 10k, cross, HM approach and not tailed for the marathon.

The fact in this London marathon edition he confines himself to run at a conservative pace in the first part of the marathon, but the reason it´s not marathon speed ability but the result from the way he did pace split the first marathon attempts, too fast pace in the past marathon attempts and that fast pace did result in the poor performances, because he couldn´t to hold that fast pace after the 30k-20mil "wall". Then he and his coach they taught that this London edition he needs an easy start on a easy conservative pace that might able him to resist in the last 1/3 of the marathon. He isn´t tired or lack of energy in the first 10k or so. He intentional did that slow because he thinks is the solution to be fast at the final part of the marathon, However, easy pace in the first part, doesn´t solve the problem of Tadesse “wall” because he got near the same energy depletion at fast pace that at slow pace, what is the result of poor training and the result of train faster than what he should

But this easy marathon pace start doesn´t solve the problem, because since he trains in paces faster than the marathon pace and short total workout distance that the marathon requires, by that kind of wrong marathon training , he "waists" the same energy at this edition London marathon, that he waists at faster pace. He is like a car that is efficient at 150miles per hour gasoline waist, hour less efficient or near the same waist at slow speed like 100miles per hour.

He waits as many “fuel” carbos and lipids, at a 2:00 marathon pace that at a 2:10. Might be less “fuel” at slower pace, however not enough “energy stock” to complete the marathon at an event pace, he needs to slow down.

The solution is to train daily long distance in slower pace that he used to train, to teach the body to less energy stock spent and the fast pace he might train shall be marathon pace mostly and not intervals at 5 to 10k that´s what he did during the marathon preparation.

This is almost the same problem that Gebrelassie did face at first marathon attempts. Gebrelassie while he was the fabulous fast runner from every distance event from 1.5 to 3k to 10k, in the early marathon attempts he did train faster and shorter that he should. The more it was done in altitude. Result: get depleted after the 42 marathon kilos. Then he changed his training to easy daily paces and long runs that he sustain for more than 3:00hours, and that´s when he did progress tremendously on the marathon distance that able him to got the WR.

In the past history I remember by memory 2 runners that got the same problem and despite they were very consistent on track 10k road-cross after long careers they weren´t been able to run a decent marathon at their abilities. One is the Spanish Mariano Haro, the other is the british Tony Simmons. It´s not by change that they got the same training profile that Tadesse does. Very fast daily runs, less long distance training than necessary, and too much competition right before the marathon, that´s what Tadesse also does, and in this point is the one I agree with you. Tadesse goes to the races overdone.

Remember Tadesse did fail his own HM world record in the 2012 edition of the Lisbon HM, just a few weeks right beforethe London marathon. This means that he is fast and ready at HM, because what supposed to be his marathon training program, it´s a 10k to HM program really indeed.

There is the reason what´s happen to him in the London once again in his marathon attempt, and not speed problem or mental problem.

That's what he did in London, result = 2:10

Track Fan 1979 wrote:

I'd like to see Tadese run somewhere where the pace is 63:30-64:00 for 1/2 way. I bet he can then use his 58 min 1/2 marathon speed to run a negative split race. Tadese is a sub 2:06 guy in my opinion, but not when the race goes out in 1:02.

You make some interesting points.

However, when reading the Claudio Beraldi/Renato Canova thread about the marathon training of some of the top Kenyan runners who were running 2-04XX - 2-05XX, the conclusion appeared to be that they were doing LOWER mileage at fast paces on average (like Tadese perhaps?). This was maybe against the common consensus of the best way to train for the marathon at the time, i.e. running more milage at slower paces. The basis of the weekly training of these runners seemed to be a fast long run.

I have no knowledge about the training methods of Tadesse's coach (Jeronimo Bravo) and who he has coached, but I guess that they will keep trying to find out what works for them for the marathon. There seems to be quite a few different approaches to training for the distance among the elites of today.

Do you really think he was not able to hold a 29:36 for the first 10km (meaning not being able to run 2:04 pace for 10 kilometers but being able to hold 2:06 pace for at least 30km)?

To me it rather seems like Tadesse just made the decision to take a more conservative approach and go with the 2nd group (understandably so given his past experience in the marathon). After all 2:06 would have been enough to get him on the Olympic Team. But even so the distance killed him for whatever reasons (mental, poor training etc.).

Ross Tucker wrote:

So this is not simply a case that he can't handle the distance, because his problems come before the distance even starts to tell. If he was in the lead group to 30km, and then fell off, fine, we can say it's the distance.

I think you are looking at the data the wrong way. It's true that he was behind the main group from the beginning, but it's also true that up until about 30K he was maintaining a fairly even pace (5K splits ranging from 14:45 to 15:10). His next 5K showed some slowdown (15:23) and then the wheels completely came off from 35-40K (17:25).

My guess is that he figured up front that he'd run 15 minutes/km and to hell with the lead group. Maybe he'd end up with a good finish, maybe not, but he'd definitely get a time he could live with (as it happens, he'd also have finished second if he'd done that. Not bad). No, I think he had a plan and just failed to execute it.

25 sittin on 25 mil wrote:

That's what he did in London, result = 2:10

Track Fan 1979 wrote:

I'd like to see Tadese run somewhere where the pace is 63:30-64:00 for 1/2 way. I bet he can then use his 58 min 1/2 marathon speed to run a negative split race. Tadese is a sub 2:06 guy in my opinion, but not when the race goes out in 1:02.

You make an excellent point. While it is true that his 1/2 way time was what I would like him to hit he was no where near the lead group and therefore out of contention for the win. I would venture a guess that if he got in a marathon where 2:07-2:08 pace was the target time at the 1/2 way point and now he is in contention for the win, that is a huge mental boost for the final 13.1 miles of the race.