HANSONS Jumped the Shark; McMillan/Hudson Shine

I love how there was so much talk about Morgan going sub 2:12 or whatever before the Trial and since KEVIN said so, it must be true. Kevin even tweeted so much about how everyone else would be making excuses. The truth is that only one hansons runner hit the time they trained for. How is that a success?

There was even so much talk about how fit Desi was. Granted, she made the team and I'm glad that she did, but she wasn't hammering away the final miles like her workouts that were leaked to the public indicated. What are the answers there?

told ya so wrote:

I love how there was so much talk about Morgan going sub 2:12 or whatever before the Trial and since KEVIN said so, it must be true. Kevin even tweeted so much about how everyone else would be making excuses. The truth is that only one hansons runner hit the time they trained for. How is that a success?

There was even so much talk about how fit Desi was. Granted, she made the team and I'm glad that she did, but she wasn't hammering away the final miles like her workouts that were leaked to the public indicated. What are the answers there?

Kevin is accurate in predicting how marathon races end up playing out. He gave Desi the best plan to win, and it wasn't a complete failure. Desi just happened to be racing one of the best distance runners in American history. I'm not sure how second is a failure. Nobody is ragging on Hall for getting dominated by Meb, both races had the same theme. One runner who had better credentials beat the other runner(both hold or held the 10k american record at some point).

As for the rest of the Hansons team, they have a lot of younger guys who are new to the marathon(not everyone of course). If you've ever run a marathon, you'd know it takes some experience to run one correctly. I don't believe Morgan trained for sub 2:12 pace like his simulator indicated. Even if he missed his time by 2 minutes, that is only about 5 seconds per mile, is it really big of a miss to think you're in shape for 5:02 pace instead of 5:07 pace? Ritz was 1 second per mile off beating Ryan Hall. Gotcher was about 1.5 seconds per mile from making the team.

I'd be more concerned if the Hanson runners all ran 2:20, that would be a real problem. No reason to knock the Hanson runners, they work as hard as anyone and most the time can churn out good runners.

firefly wrote:

meb is coached by bob larson. he has a core group including dan browne and brian ball and mammoth as a larger group

Yeah, I'm sure Dan Browne and Brian Ball are a huge training help to Meb.

Morgan missed his time by 2:22.

At that pace that is a lot per mile, 5.5 seconds.

He would have had to hit his 1/2 marathon over a minute faster.

Comparing that to Ritz being within 1 second per mile from beating Hall is a very dumb comparison.

Dathan was closer to winning it (Meb) than 5th place (Gotcher) was to him. In addition he was closing big time on Abdi.

Hall did not get dominated by Meb nor did Desi get dominated by Shalane. That was yet another dumb analogy. Pulling away in the last mile by 22 and 17 seconds respectively is hardly dominating, especially when both runners in 2nd place knew they had 2nd place securely wrapped up.

Your assessment that Morgan did not train for a 2:12 marathon like his simulator indicated is ridiculous when you look at your first sentence. Morgan trained to run 2:11 and did not do it, that is a fact. You are making excuses.

Morgan has been with Hanson's for how long? I know the answer, do you?

Guys like Canaday and others that you are implying are young and new to the marathon, aka they need more time, are not the future. He ran a sub 2:19 on Saturday and I believe his pr is a sub 2:17. Do you think time is going to make him improve "that" much? Do you think he will be on the team in 4 years? The goal is to put guys on the Olympic team, not finish 8th, 11th, 15th, etc....

Ironically, I am not knocking any of the Hanson runners or coaches but what I am doing is calling a spade a spade and being realistic.

Please list these other younger runners who you expect to do well in the marathon in the future as I can only assume you mean having a legitimate shot at making the team.

If you compare Trent in 04' or Brian in 08' you will have prove that you know nothing about running and I will break down those races for you as well.

Seriously, you "can't" actually be a coach in real life...tell me it isn't so.

3rd sentence from the bottom. proved not prove

largebrain coach wrote:

The goal is to put guys on the Olympic team, not finish 8th, 11th, 15th, etc....

You are 100% wrong. The goal of the Hanson Bros. was to raise the bar in American distance running. The goal back in 1999 when 2:15 was considered good was to change that way of thinking. This past weekend it was more difficult than ever to make both the mens and womens team in the marathon. Keep in mind that back in 2000 the US was only able to send 1 male and 1 female marathoner to the Olympics. I thank the Hansons for having the vision to change things to where they are today.

I think part of the issue is that the potential sub 2:13 guys either don't go to Hansons in the first place anymore or leave for other pastures once it appears they have the talent/base to get there (Nick/Rizzo). The fact that guys that leave continue to improve after they leave is not good news for Hansons recruiting efforts.

No he's actually right you are 100% wrong.

Kevin and Keith have stated repeatedly that their goal is to get the guys and gals on the Olympic Team. Read their site, talk to Kevin/Keith, and go to an interview on Flotrack. Raising the bar? You are a nut job. Take every Hanson male runner off the results sheet from Houston and tell me what a difference it would make (answer=none). Another way of saying it is that you should get educated.

Keep in mind that back in 2000 was a down year, hence lack of talented runners combined with extreme heat in Pittsburg, I was there.

goturback wrote:

and go to an interview on Flotrack. Raising the bar?

Flotrack was not around in 1999. There goal in starting the program was to make Distance running more relevant in the US. Check out any interview in the early years for confirmation.

All true, and that's my point.

But still, when guys like Nick and Rizzo leave they may improve some but there are reasons for that also.

Some of those reasons are getting older/stronger, a few years of building a good strong base coming to fruition, being injury-free, etc

Still, they are not 2:09 guys after leaving Hansons and then going to runfor someone else. I'm all ears if anyone wants to name one runner who has left and had tremendous success somewhere else in the marathon.

I talked with a former Hanson runner in the store a few years back. He believed in himself alright, but unrealistically. He told me that he was shooting for the podium to medal in the 10,000 in London, which is his right to believe and share if he chooses.

But unfortunately the fact is that this guy could not finish top 3 in the country so that was an extremely lofty and unrealistic goal. It's called baby steps folks, don't put the cart in front of the horse. This applies to the marathon as well and runners from clubs all over the country.

Sorry, but 2:11:56 (8th) and 2:13:42 (13th) just isn't going to get it done and Morgan was slower than that.

If those were 2nd and 3rd place times would you be happy when you know that they are not going to have any chance of actually competing?

A 2:10:00 is one thing and then hoping to have a great day on the Olympics, but a barely sub 2:12?

Of course others will argue my points but typically with no validity.

Chad Johnson was hurt going into the race. He could barely run the day before. I think he showed guts just starting the race and finishing it even if he was almost in last place.

I don't think Hansons had any real expectations that Mike Morgan would be in the top three. Luke Humphries was hurt. Clint Verran is 37 and his goal was to just make the trials.

The rest of the guys are decent but most just don't have enough talent to come anywhere near 2:10. I expect a lot of turnover in the Hanson men's program in the next year or so. Programs like theirs have up and down cycles.

i think the point most of the posters are making is that it wouldn't have mattered. you try your best to develop with what you have and if it's not happening, move on. clint, luke, chad, were not going to do anything in grand scheme of things and neither were mike or sage. it was already said that none of those guys have the talent to come anywhere near a 2:10 but thanks for confirming it.

No response bigfoot? I have followed this thread since day one and am amazed how many people claim to be some level of a running coach, spew garbage and then don't respond because 4 or 5 people one-upped them. Seriously pathetic:(

you ARE new here. bigfoot is NOT going to admit he's wrong. he will twist, bend and spin anything that is not what HE said. welcome to letsrun.com

The Hansons are the only coaches to put athletes on both the 2008 and 2012 Olympic Marathon teams. They are doing this with less talent. Any athlete that was not a college superstar and has the heart, desire, and work ethic should contact the Hansons. No other coaches have shown the ability to make this type of athlete an Olympian. The Hansons have done it once and have now repeated it.

ruptured wrote:

No response bigfoot? I have followed this thread since day one and am amazed how many people claim to be some level of a running coach, spew garbage and then don't respond because 4 or 5 people one-upped them. Seriously pathetic:(

Sorry, I have a life outside of letsrun. That's probably why I didn't respond. Sorry you've been watching this thread like a hawk. I stand by what I said because most of what coach largebrain said is simply his opinion or completely idiotic. I'm going to get my run in now for the day, maybe you should too.

splicermachine wrote:

I am not "help", but I don't think you understand what most of this thread is about. Desi and Sell?, no one is a saying one bad word about them or there coaches, the Hanson brothers.

The title of the thread states the Hansons have jumped the shark, and you're saying no one is saying a bad word about them?

"help" basically agrees with the thread title and says the only runners that matter are the first three at the trials.

I responded with a question about what he says is the only thing that matters. Why "help" has not answered my question I don't know. Perhaps he's still counting up all those coaches.

Largebrain coach, not sure why you have to attack me on here, you had a mature and interesting response and then finished at a real low point. I'd hate to think someone as mean-spirited as you coaches anyone.

I said Morgan's time was 5 seconds per mile off, you said 5.5, that's really splitting hairs. Kind of pointless to argue about that. (I actually rounded down from 5.5 when I did the math in my head because I didn't think anyone would care).

The lead pack went out really fast, and for anyone to keep contact, they were basically forced to go out fast as well. I believe that second pack went through in 1:04-1:05 ish and there were a couple runners who mentioned in interviews that they believed they could either run 2:10 that day or catch stragglers from the lead pack. What this means is nobody knew the race was going to play out that fast for the top 4 runners. (Ritz probably didn't even think Abdi was a real threat to make the team and run 2:09)

As far as the Ritz/Gotcher thing, that was to show my point that something that small in a marathon can make a huge difference. Actually you proved my point, Ritz was only about 2-3 seconds a mile from winning the thing. 2:12 is a lot of time for Morgan, but if you break it down 2 minutes in a marathon can add up REALLY QUICK.

Also, Morgan had an unexpectedly good simulator that day on a different course than they usually run. They usually run the course up here in Michigan on a very hilly route near Lake Orion/Rochester. He ran 2:10 pace, but it was probably more like 2:12 pace on the normal course. With that said, it was still unexpectedly good and they probably adjusted their goals. Up until that point, I couldn't believe they had expected to shoot for 2:10-11 pace at the beginning of the build up.

Your comment about Sage is exactly the Hanson dream. People like him show up to practice at Hansons with dreams to make an Olympic team in the back of their head. I think it's too early to tell with people like Sage. Hansons brought in a couple new guys that are around his age into the program and I'm excited to see what the future holds. I don't know why you have to rip on Morgan, I was trying to say that he had a rough day, but it really was only 5 (5.5) seconds a mile difference than what would've been a good day. If you've ever run a marathon, you'd know how easy it is to fluctuate 1-5 seconds a mile from your goal pace. Anyway, the best runners on the Hansons team are runners that have put in at least 4 years of hard work (Sell, Davila) and finally started to reap the benefits. Your legs need years of training to handle the demands of a marathon to perfection, ask Ritz.

Also, I think Meb did dominate Hall over the last 10 minutes of the race just like Shalane dominated Desi over the last bit. Meb opened a gap and jogged it in waving an American flag, and you say he didn't dominate Ryan? Really? Meb was doing cartwheels and backflips down the finishing stretch. I think I actually saw him stop to remove his breathrite strip.

The point of this post is that Hansons has not "jumped the shark" (who says that anyway?). They are running well as a whole, and given the talent they get, they are actually doing pretty well with it in most cases. I've heard of them turning down some talented runners(a couple were in the trials race), so clearly they have chosen to develop athletes like a real coach should focus on rather than chasing down D1 blue chippers. They also don't get special gifts like Ritz or Hall knocking on their door.

Now for real I'm going for my run. Have a nice day.

Also, to those of you who are attacking my handle, it's "coach bigfoot" it's really not that serious. There's users on here named Thomas Jefferson, does that means Thomas Jefferson posts on these boards? If you want to go there, my user name means I am as much a coach as I am bigfoot.