Here is an article about Marty Liquori running a 49.2 leg on the mile relay to help Villanova win the IC4A meet:
Marty has said that even though he ranked #1 in the world int the 1500 that he was really a 5000 guy all along and did not realize it until later.
Ken Martin had pretty good range. 3:57.8, 8:20, and 2:09. He never looked to me like he had exceptional speed.
I know a guy who, while not close to world-class, was a decent college miler (3:49 or 3:50 1500) and couldn't break 56 or 1:57. He swears he tried more than once to break 55 in the quarter. I think he was probably just in the wrong event since he ran under 8:10 for 3K in one of his few tries at it.
Did Steve Scott have Coe-like speed? You be the judge. Here's what he did at practice.
1/21: AM 7mi easy, tired from yesterday. PM 3x(400-200). Hamstring hurt during last 200, finished anyway.(56-25)(59-27)(58-27). 10mi
4/19: 8x300 (47.5avg) 100j, 200j 1x400 (54.3), 400w. 16x200 (31.5avg) 100j, 100w. 1x400 (51.9). Good 5k type workout. Felt good. (10mi)
4/27: No AM run, felt bad. PM felt better. 2x600-500-450-400-350 all sub60 pace. Last 400 in 51.1 3mi warmup, 2mi cooldown. (8mi)
6/8: AM 5mi easy felt sluggish. PM (500-200-400)(450-175-350)(400-150-300)(350-100-250) w/ 200j, 200w b/sets. 1st 3 sets all 53 pace or better. Last at 51 pace or better. Great workout. (7mi)
8/6: AM no run PM 600-500-400, 500-400-300, 300-200-400 all at 56.5 pace except first 500. Last 400 in 51.0 Great workout. ½ int. jog b/intvls., 400w/sets. 10mi
Notice he ran a 25 second 200m at the beginning of a workout. He should be able to at least go 49 with that kind of starting speed.
Also, notice he ends a workout with a 51.9 400m and writes "Good 5k type workout." The fastest I saw in a workout was 50.0.
I never ran a 400m in a workout faster than 57-58 and I ran a 50 flat split. How fast do you think he could run all out? My guess is Coe-like speed, but that's just a guess.
Most milers I know ran on the 4 X 400m relay team at smaller schools.
Correction. Not "The fastest I saw in a workout was 50.0", but "51.0."
From Coe's training log...
Wed 02 August: A second session to maintain the feeling of 800m race pace ? after warm-up, 3x400m @52/51/51 sec; cool-down of 2 laps @90-sec pace followed by easy jogging.
I see a trend of running no faster than 51 seconds in practice.
Mottram?
Aussiemiler wrote:
I am calling b.s on that one.
Why?
Nick Willis
400m: 50.09
400m relay: 48.6
Or as lol lol lol lol said, if 46.xx is the criteria, then perhaps almost all of them.
Why I call b.s. on Coghlan not being able to break 50 seconds for 400:
1. Easily observable turn of pace, agility, and power.
2. He ran a 1:47 800m in 1977, well before his peak years in the early to mid 80s.
3. All sub 3:50 milers can break 50 for 400m.
Actually improved endurance or "strength", many times means improved speed. Webb could have run in the 46's. Maybe high 46, but definitely in the 46's. A lot of runners have the capability of running a lot faster in a shorter event than they ever show. When you're in peak shape for running the mile, you don't waste it on running all out 400's. Hicham El Guerrouj's best 800 according to the IAAF is 1:47.18. Now if you don't think he could have run at least 1 1/2 seconds faster than that in his prime mile shape of 3:43, you do not have a very solid understanding of running.
SlowFatMaster wrote:
Here is an article about Marty Liquori running a 49.2 leg on the mile relay to help Villanova win the IC4A meet:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2002&dat=19700601&id=5msyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-7IFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2728,124668
That's a 50.xx out of the blocks and he ran 3:52 and ranked #1 in the world twice at 1500 meters.
Aussiemiler wrote:
I am calling b.s on that one.
It's a statement he's made on more than one occasion. You will find it fairly common among 5000 runners who can run well under 4:00 but are clearly better at the longer distances.
From200mTo8k wrote:
Did Steve Scott have Coe-like speed? You be the judge.
He did break 50, but barely IIRC.
His best 800 was a 1:45.05 the same year he ran 3:47.69. He was probably capable of a low 49 in 1982 and 1983.
jimjamesrunner wrote:
Actually improved endurance or "strength", many times means improved speed. Webb could have run in the 46's. Maybe high 46, but definitely in the 46's. A lot of runners have the capability of running a lot faster in a shorter event than they ever show. When you're in peak shape for running the mile, you don't waste it on running all out 400's. Hicham El Guerrouj's best 800 according to the IAAF is 1:47.18. Now if you don't think he could have run at least 1 1/2 seconds faster than that in his prime mile shape of 3:43, you do not have a very solid understanding of running.
It typically doesn't work that way when distance runners mature. Usually, they sacrifice speed to gain strength and even while tapering and running relatively fast reps never regain the speed they had before adding significant millage. Runners like Coe are very rare indeed.
All of the following men, sub 3:50 milers, have or could have broken 50 seconds for 400m.
3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14 Sep 1974 1 Roma 07 Jul 1999
3:43.40 Noah Ngeny KEN 02 Nov 1978 2 Roma 07 Jul 1999
3:44.39 Noureddine Morceli ALG 28 Feb 1970 1 Rieti 05 Sep 1993
3:44.60 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Nice 16 Jul 1998
3:44.90 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Oslo 04 Jul 1997
3:44.95 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:45.19 Noureddine Morceli 1 Zürich 16 Aug 1995
3:45.64 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Berlin 26 Aug 1997
3:45.96 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 London 05 Aug 2000
3:46.24 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Oslo 28 Jul 2000
3:46.32 Steve Cram GBR 14 Oct 1960 1 Oslo 27 Jul 1985
3:46.38 Daniel Komen KEN 17 May 1976 2 Berlin 26 Aug 1997
3:46.70 Vénuste Niyongabo BDI 09 Dec 1973 3 Berlin 26 Aug 1997
3:46.76 Saïd Aouita MAR 02 Nov 1959 1 Helsinki 02 Jul 1987
3:46.78 Noureddine Morceli 1 Berlin 27 Aug 1993
3:46.91 Alan Webb USA 13 Jan 1983 1 Brasschaat 21 Jul 2007
3:46.92 Saïd Aouita 1 Zürich 21 Aug 1985
3:47.10 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 London 07 Aug 1999
3:47.28 Bernard Lagat KEN 12 Dec 1974 2 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:47.30 Noureddine Morceli 1 Bruxelles 03 Sep 1993
3:47.33 Sebastian Coe GBR 29 Sep 1956 1 Bruxelles 28 Aug 1981
3:47.65 Laban Rotich KEN 20 Jan 1969 2 Oslo 04 Jul 1997
3:47.67 Noah Ngeny 2 London 05 Aug 2000
Page 24 of 200
MEN
One Mile ( WR 3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR Roma, 07 Jul 1999 )
3:47.69 Steve Scott USA 05 May 1956 1 Oslo 07 Jul 1982
3:47.78 Noureddine Morceli 1 Oslo 10 Jul 1993
3:47.79 José Luís Gonzalez ESP 08 Dec 1957 2 Oslo 27 Jul 1985
3:47.85 Daniel Komen 1 Rieti 03 Sep 1997
3:47.88 John Kemboi Kibowen KEN 21 Apr 1969 3 Oslo 04 Jul 1997
3:47.91 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Bruxelles 25 Aug 2000
3:47.94 William Chirchir KEN 06 Feb 1979 2 Oslo 28 Jul 2000
3:47.97 Daham Najim Bashir QAT 08 Nov 1979 1 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
3:48.15 Noureddine Morceli 1 Oslo 05 Jul 1996
3:48.17 Paul Korir KEN 15 Jul 1977 1 London 08 Aug 2003
3:48.23 William Chirchir 2 Bruxelles 25 Aug 2000
3:48.23 Ali Saïdi-Sief ALG 15 Mar 1978 1 Oslo 13 Jul 2001
3:48.26 Noureddine Morceli 1 Berlin 01 Sep 1995
3:48.26 Vénuste Niyongabo 4 Oslo 04 Jul 1997
3:48.28 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Roma 12 Jul 2002
3:48.28 Daniel Kipchirchir Komen KEN 27 Nov 1984 1 Eugene, OR 10 Jun 2007
3:48.31 Steve Cram 1 Oslo 05 Jul 1986
3:48.38 Andrés Manuel Díaz ESP 12 Jul 1969 3 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:48.38 Bernard Lagat 2 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
3:48.40 Steve Ovett GBR 09 Oct 1955 1 Koblenz 26 Aug 1981
3:48.49 Daniel Kipchirchir Komen 3 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
3:48.50 Asbel Kiprop KEN 30 Jun 1989 1 Eugene, OR 07 Jun 2009
3:48.53 Sebastian Coe 1 Zürich 19 Aug 1981
3:48.53 Steve Scott 1 Oslo 26 Jun 1982
3:48.57 Bernard Lagat 2 Oslo 13 Jul 2001
3:48.64 Noureddine Morceli 1 Nice 16 Jul 1997
3:48.67 Noureddine Morceli 1 Sankt-Peterburg 26 Jul 1994
3:48.69 Hicham El Guerrouj 2 Zürich 16 Aug 1995
3:48.73 Steve Scott 2 Oslo 05 Jul 1986
3:48.78 Haron Keitany KEN 17 Dec 1983 2 Eugene, OR 07 Jun 2009
3:48.80 William Kemei KEN 22 Feb 1969 1 Berlin 21 Aug 1992
3:48.80 Steve Ovett 1 Oslo 01 Jul 1980
3:48.83 Sydney Maree USA 09 Sep 1956 1 Rieti 09 Sep 1981
3:48.85 Sydney Maree 2 Oslo 26 Jun 1982
3:48.85 Steve Cram 1 Oslo 02 Jul 1988
3:48.92 Alan Webb 4 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
3:48.94 Vénuste Niyongabo 1 Oslo 22 Jul 1994
3:48.95 Sebastian Coe 1 Oslo 17 Jul 1979
3:48.95 Deresse Mekonnen ETH 20 Oct 1987 1 Oslo (Bislett) 03 Jul 2009
3:49.01 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Paris 29 Jul 1998
3:49.08 John Walker NZL 12 Jan 1952 2 Oslo 07 Jul 1982
3:49.09 Noureddine Morceli 1 Berlin 30 Aug 1996
3:49.12 Noureddine Morceli 1 Lausanne 10 Jul 1991
3:49.12 Saïd Aouita 1 Nice 13 Jul 1997
3:49.20 Peter Elliott GBR 09 Oct 1962 2 Oslo 02 Jul 1988
3:49.21 Steve Scott 1 Berlin 17 Aug 1983
3:49.22 Sebastian Coe 3 Oslo 27 Jul 1985
3:49.22 Jens-Peter Herold GDR 02 Jun 1965 3 Oslo 02 Jul 1988
3:49.25 Steve Ovett 1 Oslo 11 Jul 1981
3:49.29 William Biwott Tanui KEN 05 Mar 1990 2 Oslo (Bislett) 03 Jul 2009
3:49.31 Joe Falcon USA 23 Jun 1966 1 Oslo 14 Jul 1990
3:49.34 David Moorcroft GBR 10 Apr 1953 3 Oslo 26 Jun 1982
3:49.34 Benjamin Kipkurui KEN 28 Dec 1980 3 Bruxelles 25 Aug 2000
3:49.38 Andrew Baddeley GBR 20 Jun 1982 1 Oslo (Bislett) 06 Jun 2008
3:49.40 Abdi Bile SOM 28 Dec 1962 4 Oslo 02 Jul 1988
3:49.40 John Walker 1 Göteborg 12 Aug 1975
3:49.41 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 London 22 Jul 2001
3:49.42 Sydney Maree 1 Cork 13 Jul 1982
3:49.45 Mike Boit KEN 06 Jan 1949 2 Bruxelles 28 Aug 1981
3:49.46 Peter Elliott 1 Oslo 06 Jul 1991
3:49.49 Steve Scott 1 Oslo 09 Jul 1983
3:49.49 Steve Cram 1 London 12 Sep 1986
3:49.49 William Chirchir 2 Roma 12 Jul 2002
3:49.50 John Walker 4 Oslo 26 Jun 1982
3:49.50 Rui Silva POR 03 Aug 1977 3 Roma 12 Jul 2002
3:49.54 Saïd Aouita 1 Zürich 22 Aug 1984
3:49.56 Fermín Cacho ESP 16 Feb 1969 2 Oslo 05 Jul 1996
3:49.56 Asbel Kiprop 1 Oslo (Bislett) 04 Jun 2010
3:49.57 Steve Ovett 1 London 31 Aug 1979
3:49.57 Haron Keitany 1 Ostrava 17 Jun 2009
3:49.60 José Antonio Redolat ESP 17 Feb 1976 4 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:49.65 Steve Cram 1 Koblenz 29 Aug 1984
3:49.66 Steve Ovett 1 Lausanne 14 Jul 1981
3:49.67 José Luís Gonzalez 2 Oslo 11 Jul 1981
3:49.68 Steve Scott 3 Oslo 11 Jul 1981
3:49.70 Haron Keitany 2 Oslo (Bislett) 06 Jun 2008
3:49.72 Steve Scott 1 Koblenz 25 Aug 1982
Page 25 of 200
MEN
One Mile ( WR 3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR Roma, 07 Jul 1999 )
3:49.72 Deresse Mekonnen 3 Oslo (Bislett) 06 Jun 2008
3:49.73 John Walker 2 Berlin 17 Aug 1983
3:49.73 John Walker 2 Koblenz 29 Aug 1984
3:49.74 Mike Boit 2 Zürich 19 Aug 1981
3:49.75 Sydney Maree 2 Koblenz 25 Aug 1982
3:49.75 Leonard Mucheru Maina KEN 13 Jun 1978 5 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:49.75 Asbel Kiprop 1 r1 Eugene, OR 03 Jul 2010
3:49.76 Peter Elliott 2 Oslo 14 Jul 1990
3:49.77 Ray Flynn IRL 22 Jan 1957 3 Oslo 07 Jul 1982
3:49.77 Wilfred Oanda Kirochi KEN 12 Dec 1969 2 Oslo 06 Jul 1991
3:49.79 Noureddine Morceli 2 Berlin 21 Aug 1992
3:49.80 Jim Spivey USA 07 Mar 1960 3 Oslo 05 Jul 1986
3:49.80 Vénuste Niyongabo 1 London 27 Aug 1995
3:49.83 Jim Spivey 3 Oslo 06 Jul 1991
3:49.83 Vyacheslav Shabunin RUS 27 Sep 1969 6 Roma 29 Jun 2001
3:49.83 Mekonnen Gebremedhin ETH 11 Oct 1988 2 Oslo (Bislett) 04 Jun 2010
3:49.84 Bernard Lagat 4 Bruxelles 25 Aug 2000
3:49.84 Paul Korir 1 London (CP) 30 Jul 2004
3:49.87 John Kemboi Kibowen 3 Oslo 28 Jul 2000
3:49.90 Steve Cram 2 Cork 13 Jul 1982
3:49.90 Abdi Bile 2 Oslo 01 Jul 1989
3:49.91 Simon Doyle AUS 09 Nov 1966 4 Oslo 06 Jul 1991
3:49.92 Hicham El Guerrouj 1 Eugene, OR 27 May 2001
3:49.93 Sydney Maree 1 Aichach 16 Sep 1981
3:49.93 Steve Scott 4 Oslo 27 Jul 1985
3:49.95 Steve Cram 3 Zürich 19 Aug 1981
3:49.95 Tarek Boukensa ALG 19 Nov 1981 6 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
3:49.98 Thomas Wessinghage FRG 22 Feb 1952 3 Berlin 17 Aug 1983
3:48.98 Craig Mottram AUS 18 Jun 1980 5 Oslo 29 Jul 2005
This guy too, sub 50 seconds for 400m.
Sorry brother, in cut and paste haste I chopped your name off.
Marcus O'Sullivan has run 1:45 for 800m. He's easily a sub 50sec 400m guy.
I agree that they could probably all run sub 50. Geb + Bekele have both run sub 50 so elite milers should do it easily. The one guy from that list who is probably the slowest is Daniel Komen. He had no kick whatsoever and never really showed any power or change of pace, he was just an absolutely effortless machine at 60 second pace.
It would be interesting to see how many sub 3:50 milers couldn't break 50 in the 400.
Not quite the OP's original intent, but Bekele and Geb ought to top this list; probably 49-50 in the 400 but with 3:31 prs. That's a hell of a 400/1500 ratio.