How does Fayeteville-Manlius do it?

I think they are also the best because they train year round for distance events. They keep their miles high and training over time makes a huge difference in performance.

So Tatnall didn't have an 8th Grader last year? Saratoga didn't have an 8th grader last year! Nike might list them at as 9th graders even though they are not...do better research.

Saratoga did have a 8th grader in the lineup last year at NXN and they still would of gotten 2nd because Estella Smith was their #6 finisher, so that did not impact their score!!

Nobody wants to believe that atmosphere has that much of an impact because it's so much harder to duplicate. It can't be copied from a book. A lone runner on his own reading this thread can't mimic it. There's no formula that you can use to just plug in info on your athletes and have it spit out what to do. People hate hearing that something simple in nature but hard to duplicate is the key to success.

It was Louisiana, I can't remember her name either but haven't heard anything about her in the last few years.

Sure, FM would of won all five national championships without 7th and 8th graders, but how about other teams not in New York? Would they have been better?

For example, imagine teams like Saugus and Corona Del Mar. Could they have beaten FM with all those superstars on one team?

Everyone is arguing about whether or not FM would of still won without those 7th and 8th graders when the real argument should be about whether or not FM would of still won had other teams had 7th and 8th graders on their teams.

Perhaps the better question yet about 7th and 8th graders is how good of a senior do you end up with if they started in such a great program as a 7th or 8th grader? That's probably the key.

Is this still going on? Seriously? Rather than teach your runners how to stand up to the challenge that NY Girls programs present (because they have consistently smashed the shiX out of you and everyone else at the top of the nation's best for decades), you CA coaches find it better to teach them to make excuses, dig for reasons as to why they simply can't beat FM or Saratoga, and then twist those reasons around into having the appearance of weighing heavily on the outcome of every NTN/NXN to date. Absolutely sad, and this will be the reason why people one day stop coming on message boards and having this discussion. Because you are all a bunch of whine ass softies, no one respects you because you are full of excuses, rather than intelligent ways to use what you have to your own advantage, and do what FM and Saratoga have done for so long. FIND THE METHOD FOR SUCCESS, APPLY IT, AND ONE DAY BE CHALLENGING THE BEST IN THE NATION.

And that's right, FM is in fact, the best this nation has ever seen on a whole, year in year out, talented teams and non talented teams, they always end up on top on the girls, and rather close on the boys.

No amount of complaining in the world by CA coaches and runners will change the fact that FM has done something absolutely mind blowing in recent history. Take your 8th grade talk, your private summer training, your pillow fights and surf boards, and shove them.

Talk talk talk, in the end, FM reigns. Without two of its top five from last year, including its number one from last year who scored two points for their team at NXN Champs, playing field must SURELY be level now, right?

Shut the fucX up and run. Maybe along the way, learn a thing or two from the best you'll ever see.

I'll put money on it. FM smokes the field again this year, two of their top five down, and number one from last year, with an inexperienced and young team, losing some experience and maturity from two seniors, and CA still won't concede that there is something special going on, far beyond anything they can comprehend. No, instead it will be more excuses, cutting down, BS, BS, BS. CA, you makes me ill, brotha.

Absolutely, FM has been the best for years and will almost assuredly win again this year.

How, though, does the coaching described in this thread take a 10th grader with PRs of 5:01 in the 1500 and 10:47 in the 3000 in May 2010 and transform her into the second place finisher at NXN seven months later? Second place meant she finished ahead of all of her teammates, all of the Saratoga girls, Amy Eloise Neale, Haley Pierce, Shaylyn Tuite, Katie Knight, Brittany Winslow, Samantha Nadel, Kayla Beattie, Cami Chapus, Allie Woodward, etc. FYI, she ran cross country in 2009 but was never among the top 7 and had a speed rating best of 104 (the equivalent of a 5:05 1500 and 11:05 3000.

To me, that is one of the most remarkable high school coaching achievements ever.

FM is the best wrote:

Absolutely, FM has been the best for years and will almost assuredly win again this year.

How, though, does the coaching described in this thread take a 10th grader with PRs of 5:01 in the 1500 and 10:47 in the 3000 in May 2010 and transform her into the second place finisher at NXN seven months later? Second place meant she finished ahead of all of her teammates, all of the Saratoga girls, Amy Eloise Neale, Haley Pierce, Shaylyn Tuite, Katie Knight, Brittany Winslow, Samantha Nadel, Kayla Beattie, Cami Chapus, Allie Woodward, etc. FYI, she ran cross country in 2009 but was never among the top 7 and had a speed rating best of 104 (the equivalent of a 5:05 1500 and 11:05 3000.

To me, that is one of the most remarkable high school coaching achievements ever.

Yes, and look where she is now? I'm sure someone will say it was worth it?

swizzle swag wrote:[/b

No amount of complaining in the world by CA coaches and runners will change the fact that FM has done something absolutely mind blowing in recent history. Take your 8th grade talk, your private summer training, your pillow fights and surf boards, and shove them.

Talk talk talk, in the end, FM reigns. Without two of its top five from last year, including its number one from last year who scored two points for their team at NXN Champs, playing field must SURELY be level now, right?

Shut the fucX up and run. Maybe along the way, learn a thing or two from the best you'll ever see.

DITTO!DITTO!DITTO! You are 1000% correct! Thank you so much for just flat out stating the truth.

swizzle swag wrote:

I'll put money on it. FM smokes the field again this year, two of their top five down, and number one from last year, with an inexperienced and young team, losing some experience and maturity from two seniors, and CA still won't concede that there is something special going on, far beyond anything they can comprehend. No, instead it will be more excuses, cutting down, BS, BS, BS. CA, you makes me ill, brotha.

Check the science, swag. It is clearly the answer to the thread title question.

A well regarded coach from cali pointed this out here

Not an excuse, this is science, deal with it.

Only thing we've got to deal with is your soft ass excuse making, and routing you every single time out.

It's fun for NY. I can't imagine being brought up in an enironment of excuse making and hedging. I cry for CA kids, I really do.

Coaches can't shut up, obviously can't put up, won't find a way to find a better way to coach their teams successfully.

Arcadia boys, a different story. Saugus girls seem not to make excuses either.

NY girls XC coaching, training, and racing are superior. You can't accept it, will make excuses on account of it, you look so very bad to the rest of the nation people.

Science ain't the name of the game in this sport. Hard work, new ideas, and motivation are the names of the game. Deal with it. I'll be back on after early December to read up on new excuses for CA teams being routed.

By the way, did I see NY Girls teams were ranked 1,2 and 3 in the nation on Dyestat today? Oh my God. Must be something in the water, or mud, or PED's, or our 8th graders, or our summer training programs, or the temperatures, or the conditions, or the............

Shut the fucX up

I forgot. We not only have to deal with excuses every single year, all year, we also deal with winning (and well). What do you think your kids think about when they line up in December? How unfair the playing field is, and how they will never be able to defeat the NY teams. What a way to send them off at their National Championship! Just doing us favors.

FM is the best wrote:

Absolutely, FM has been the best for years and will almost assuredly win again this year.

How, though, does the coaching described in this thread take a 10th grader with PRs of 5:01 in the 1500 and 10:47 in the 3000 in May 2010 and transform her into the second place finisher at NXN seven months later? Second place meant she finished ahead of all of her teammates, all of the Saratoga girls, Amy Eloise Neale, Haley Pierce, Shaylyn Tuite, Katie Knight, Brittany Winslow, Samantha Nadel, Kayla Beattie, Cami Chapus, Allie Woodward, etc. FYI, she ran cross country in 2009 but was never among the top 7 and had a speed rating best of 104 (the equivalent of a 5:05 1500 and 11:05 3000.

To me, that is one of the most remarkable high school coaching achievements ever.

Take a look at pictures of the athlete you are speaking about. There was a huge transformation in those 7 months physically that would enable her to run that much faster. You can credit the coach with motivating her to make changes in her lifestyle that will produce big improvements, but it's not just the training that got her there last year.

cali would win wrote:

swizzle swag wrote:

I'll put money on it. FM smokes the field again this year, two of their top five down, and number one from last year, with an inexperienced and young team, losing some experience and maturity from two seniors, and CA still won't concede that there is something special going on, far beyond anything they can comprehend. No, instead it will be more excuses, cutting down, BS, BS, BS. CA, you makes me ill, brotha.

Check the science, swag. It is clearly the answer to the thread title question.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/coaching-young-athletes-to-produce-future-stars-41432

A well regarded coach from cali pointed this out here

http://tracktalk.rise.espn.go.com/showthread.php?115210-Girls-Team-Rankings-Discussion-Thread-November-5&p=3426221#post3426221

Not an excuse, this is science, deal with it.

According to Lore of Running (p. 347-351), this isn't true. Noakes certainly could be wrong, but the opinion that website espouses is certainly not Gospel truth.

I copied this from a DyeStat Forum:

______________________________________

Here's a quick comparison of FM, Saratoga and Saugus during the NTN/NXN era. Sure looks as if the two teams with dedicated 7-8th grade programs had more younger girls scoring and contributing than did the team without such a program.

FM

2006 / 9-10-12-12-8-9-12

2007 / 9-10-10-10-11-11-12

2008 / 10-12-11-11-11-12-12

2009 / 10-12-11-9-12-12-10

2010 / 11-11-10-11-12-11-10

2011 / 11-12-9-11-8-10-11 (current top 7)

# of 8-10th graders / scorers

4/3

4/4

1/1

3/2

2/1

3/2

Average 2.83 / 2.17

Saratoga

2004 / 11-9-11-9-12-11-10

2005 / 12-10-12-8-12-12-8

2007 / 12-9-10-10-9-9-9

2008 / 8-10-10-11-8-11-10

2009 / 9-9-11-11-12-12-11

2010 / 10-12-10-12-11-8-12

2011 / 11-11-9-12-8-12-10 (current top 7)

# of 8-10th graders / scorers

3/2

3/2

6/4

2/2

3/2

3/2

3/2

Average 3.28 / 2.28

Saugus

2006 / 12-11-9-10-11-11-10

2007 / 12-9-11-11-12-12-10

2008 / 10-11-10-12-12-9-12

2009 / 11-10-11-11-12-11-10

2010 / 12-12-12-12-11-12-11

2011 / 12-12-12-11-12-11-12 (current top 7)

# of 9-10th graders / scorers

3/2

2/1

3/2

2/1

0

0

Average 1.66 / 1.0

If you consider just 8-9th graders running varsity during the period, it looks like this:

FM - 7 (6 individuals)

Saratoga - 15 (10 individuals)

Saugus - 3 individuals

You really don't think having younger girls training and feeding directly into a varsity program doesn't make a difference?

____________________________________

To answer the question posed at the end: it does appear that having 7-8th grade feeder programs offers a substantial benefit in preparing younger girls to contribute to varsity teams.

Another question posed elsewhere in the DyeStat thread: if the NY girls are just better - due to trainng, coaching, work ethic, team culture - why aren't the NY boys just as dominant?

swizzle swag wrote:

Science ain't the name of the game in this sport. Hard work, new ideas, and motivation are the names of the game. Deal with it. I'll be back on after early December to read up on new excuses for CA teams being routed.

By the way, did I see NY Girls teams were ranked 1,2 and 3 in the nation on Dyestat today? Oh my God. Must be something in the water, or mud, or PED's, or our 8th graders, or our summer training programs, or the temperatures, or the conditions, or the............

Shut the fucX up

Talk about it swizzle swag!!! Don't worry Califonia, NY is goin travel across the country to prove it to ya again! NXN is no day at the beach so leave all volleyballs and excuses at home!