Kenyan Trials

CanadaCoach wrote:

Notice how when he uses examples of workouts, he uses the best athlete examples he can. It is a great way to self-promote over simple education. If you want to discuss examples of how to train or training ideas, it would be beneficial to talk in terms of % of race pace, etc than 3 x 3000m @ 8:14. But that does impress Let's Run readers.

I remember reading some (older) stuff where he, mr. Canova, explained the Italian system for marathon with '%', the max. speed there was 110% of race pace. You should read that, if you really are interested.

CanadaCoach wrote:

Don't always get so ensnared with coaches who coach the great athletes. Part of being a good coach when you have access to the great talents is to not screw them up.

What makes a really great coach is one who can take mediocre athletes become good.

I'm not a coach but this does not jive for me. It would seem much more difficult to coach a world class talent because the margin for error is so much smaller. Slight adjustments in training can mean the difference between a great season and a disastrous one - the difference between making the Olympic team or staying home.

CanadaCoach wrote:

If you want to discuss examples of how to train or training ideas, it would be beneficial to talk in terms of % of race pace

Canova has done this, and in greater detail than any coach who has ever posted on this message board.

It's called the "search" button: learn it, know it, live it.

Or you can keep wanking off to your sub-4:20 "prodigy"...

If you are really serious, here are a few more things to think about.In Noakes "The Lore of Running", I read that Swedish elite athletes visited Kenya, and struggled to train with school-children. They estimated that there were 500 school-children capable of competing with the Swedes.Drug programs require support and infrastructure. They need money, equipment, medical supplies, not to mention basic things like reliable, continuous, sources of electricity, and refrigeration. They sometimes need political support within athletics and drug testing circles, to manipulate drug testing processes, and/or results.Do Kenyans (and Ethiopians) have more money than Americans and Europeans? Do they have access to more sophisticated medical facilities? Are Kenyan school-children as "connected" as a Lance Armstrong or Alberto Contador, with their federations? Do Kenyan camps even have refrigerators? Maybe they just go to the local Best Western, and take lots of ice from the ice machines.What is it about Kenya that leads anyone to suspect that their "drug programs" can massively outperform the rest of the world, by such a huge margin, on such a consistent long-term basis? If it's just drugs, why don't we see a few more competitive Europeans, Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc.?

Rx wrote:

In all seriousness: just how rampant is the performance enhancing drug problem in Kenya?

In a recent conversation a few of my friends and I were discussing when the last "CLEAN" Olympics were held.

I opined that is was probably Rome (1960), MAYBE Tokyo (1964). By Mexico City it was pretty clear the genie was out of the bottle, no pun intended.

Also when were the last CLEAN world records?

Rx wrote:

Also when were the last CLEAN world records?

David Rudisha 1:41.01 August 2010

If you think that Renato training hard to undertstand it’s a kind of portuguese against American, or an America exclusive, what so ever, you miss the point.

Look. It’s not insulting because it happens the same with the portuguese coaches and athletes while read and listen Renato.

Let me prove what I say. Some 3 years ago, Renato Canova was in Portugal for a Seminary about middle and long distance training. I was there to listen Renato presentation. At that occasion Renato did speak in english to the portuguese audience, but all is translated to portuguese by someone that knows not just fluent English, but also that man that did the translation is supposed to understand about the run sport.

However after REnato prewsnetation and in the next few days, I did a talk with some coaches that were there present also and I got the conclusion that they didn’t understand something of the Renato presentation on that Seminary due to his own weak methodology understand.

As you see it’s not your individual problem, an american question, it´s one universal methodology problem.

I admit that in this case, the reason about some misunderstand is due to different schools of methodology with different names that haven’t the same meaning in different languages, but i also think that we might agree or disagree with Renato eventually, but what Renato says is so logic, so coherent, so easy to understand and not hard to understand if we have rich methodology understand.

My comment that sometimes it’s hard for the americans to understand Renato training is based in the fact that he did talk in America recently and in many LetsRunCom posts the people present there they express the opinion that is hard to understand Renato training because Renato´s poor english. Sometimes they say the same about me and my posts, despite I don’t what to relate me with Renato knowledge. But i trust that the main reason for those that say they don´t t understand is due to poor methodology understand mainly and not poor english speak by Renato.

Finally despite that it’s you that did ask the question and obviously you didn’t understand Renato post completely, my comment it’s not for you in particularly, it’s for all that think that Renato´s training is hard to understand, what i think it doesn’t.

the smartest lestsrunner wrote:

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Did i made myself clear ? When the americans they say its hard to understand Renato training, it´s not Renato poor english but it´s american poor methodology training understand.

don´t understanThe problem of the americans

Wow. Thanks for the information. Don't know why you have to insult most of the readers.

Everybody else here was having a civil conversation.

I´m not surprised. We all know that Cabral is very knowledgeable, but also a socially incompetent asshole.

POD!

I would simply mention, partially in support of Coaches Canova and Cabral, that in 1972, Frank Shorter set the American 10000 meter record in the Olympic heats, then reset it three days later coming in fifth in the finals, and eight days after that won the marathon.

I think it is important to see the workout times run by the world's best. Canada Coach, we are stuck in a country where 14:00 is a very good time, just as it now is in Britain. I think it is very helpful to see what guys can do to raise our own expectations. Of course we can't match the actual times run by the Kenyans in practice, but we can adapt those workouts to try to raise our standard.

Renato, when you say he is self coached, do you mean he is actually coming up with these schedules himself? And are they not very similar to what you are doing and have done in the past?

Thanks as always.

It should be pretty damned easy to extrapolate that when Mr. Canova is saying "5x5km @ 14:45 with 1km recover in 3:40" he is talking about guys who are running 2:06 for the marathon.

It's very easy to apply his lessons to your own running. Today I tried 3x6km at 3:15/km with 4 min. recovery in 4:00 and it worked very well. It was a hard workout but I think the pace was good for me.

Jason

I've re-read the post by Mr. Canova, and I think he is saying that "Specials Blocks" training extends endurance of the same speed (specific speed acquired from the Category A and B examples provided above the Special Blocks training), so that the 12km cross-country race-distance result, though not the primary goal, is very good.

It is the developed capacity to maintain speed for longer that is the goal of marathon training, but the same capacity provides the ability to race the 12k cross-country race-distance successfully. The same capacity to sustain speed further helped Paula Radcliffe improve her 3000m and 10000m times following marathon training. Thus, Mr. Canova's statement about "...having at the same time more endurance" describes the utility of developing specific endurance for the marathon as being also highly important to racing shorter distances,like the 3000m to 12000m distances.

If I have missed a point - because my methodology of language is insufficient - then please correct me without insulting me. Thank you. (

No offense to Mr. Cabral, who is knowledgeable, but I'd like to read a a direct response from Mr. Canova, if he is still around.)

Regards,

Tom

I agree with Canuck, it's a revelation to see what some world class guys do, unlike the secretive nature that underlines other coaches training regimens (i.e. - JS).

It's not that difficult to take mediocre runners and develop them to average runners. Name a mediocre runner who became world-class? Being an undeveloped runner is NOT the same thing as being mediocre.

Cabral is right about American coaches - far too many really aren't as knowledgable or as competent (maybe more on this board are) as they could/should be - otherwise there wouldn't be two coaching groups (Salazar/Schumacher) that so many think are the ONLY alternatives for world-class development. This is of course stretching things a bit, as other coaches (Gags, Cook, Li, etc.) can equally do the same, although they don't get the same press coverage. Of course part of this is the disconnect between NCAA coaches (many who are competent, and too many who aren't) and post-grad training for becoming world-class runners. The two (development as an NCAA athlete and BEING a world-class athlete) aren't mutually inclusive, unfortunately, and that is why (given the number of NCAA athletes compared to African athletes at similar ages) there aren't more Americans at the same performance levels. Given the potential of better coaching knowledge (well-educated coaches) and access to equipment (like lactate analysers) and physiologists to individualize training, it is galling that the yearly lists aren't totally dominated by American Collegiate-aged athletes.

What I find baffling gabout all this Rupp/Mo Farah connection, is that it presumes that they are similar athletes physiologically (maybe they are, as I'm not privy to that kind of information). It reminds me of Cabral's posts on MM Pereira and Mamede/Lopes in that these athletes trained under the same coach, both had world-class 10000m results, yet trained differently becuase their physiological (FT/ST) profiles were different. That is the individualization of coaching that tells me that the coach is competent, not that there are a group of people simply doing the same things (chasing each other as too often happens in school environments) together because it is convenient for the coach, and because the athletes don't know any better.

I’m in Iten from 1998. When I arrived the first time, Iten was a very small village, with few buildings. I went for coaching Christopher Koskei, and he had a camp out of the village, about 10 small rooms with one bed only. The athletes used to cook on fire, no kitchen, no hygienic facilities and problems with water.

In Iten there were few athletes only.

Step by step, every year the number of running people raised.

The first marathon runner in the area was Christopher Cheboiboch. When I arrived, I started to produce programs for the local runners. Ten years ago, the areas with more technical knowledge were around Kapsabet and Kaptagat.

Iten started to collect the athletes coming from Marakwet, while Kapsabet collected athletes from Nandi.

My programs went around (they were the only existing), and for the athletes in Iten became the training phylosophy they used, like young runners continue to use, for track, the basic program from Brother Colm. Kenyans are very traditional, when something works well at the moment.

One of the first (and more interested and intelligent) runners I moved to Marathon was Daniel Rono. He was a half marathon runner (60:14) and wanted to stay long time on shorter distances before moving to Marathon. I spent one year for changing his mind. At the end, I gave him a program for moving from 10000m to marathon, and he became able running 2:06:58 in Rotterdam. Since he has mental characteristics for being a leader, he started to produce programs for other runners of the area.

In Iten, runners coming from Marakwet create spontaneous groups, not depending on their management, but on their origin.

So, these groups started to train with the programs from Daniel Rono (runner up in Boston 3 years ago), copy of the program I gave him some year before.

From this program, in short time Iten produced athletes as Geoffrey, Wilson Kipsang (winner in Frankfurt with 14:02 last 5 km !), Gilbert Kirwa (2:06:12), Teimet (2:06:49) and many others between 2:07 and 2:09.

They are able to have high feeling with their body. Sometimes, we meet and I advise them how to approach their marathon, or how to recover from some problem : but usually they are able to train with big motivation, and to understand the basic needs of training.

So, one thing is the general training phylosophy, that in this area is still the same I created 10 years ago, with few updates only ; other thing is the daily program, that they are able to arrange looking at the conditions of the moment (rain season, wind, sickness etc…).

Different the situation with women. In Iten, never a women group existed. If there was one lady in one group, it was for her very difficult to train, because she was alone, without any assistance, and this situation didn’t allow anybody in reaching top results.

From 2007, the situation changed, as the Italian manager Gianni Demadonna put in Iten, because I was there, his training camp, giving the responsibility to manage everything to my young Italian follower Gabriele Nicola, helped by Joseph Cheromei.

Gabriele started to collect all the women runners of Iten, organising their training in professional way (for example, the group has 4 men specifically pacing, according to the value of the athletes).

In 3 years, this system produced Mary Keitany (now WR holder of 20 km / HM / 25 km), the come back of Lydia Cheromei (2:23.01), the improvement of Agnes Kiprop and Helena Kirop (both about 2:24), of Hilda Kibet (2:26) and a lot of results under 2:30 in Marathon, and the qualification of Peninah Arusei (bronze medal in WHMCh 2010) in HM.

So, we can say that all the women are followed very well from Gabriele Nicola (I give my help, but now he’s able to do everything very well personally, and my intervention is only to discuss the programs of the athletes sharing my ideas, while Gabriele makes the training programs for the group), while for the most part the best men are self-coached.

The athletes I follow daily, with some different approach (also because I need to continue to search new solutions, and for that reason I need athletes available to follow my strategy mentally free from their traditional training), are Florence Kiplagat (World Champion in Cross Country 2009 and in HM 2010) and her husband Moses Mosop (3 times winner of Kenyan Trials in Cross and 3 times winner in 10000m, bronze medal in WCh 2005 in Helsinki in 10000m and silver medal in Cross Country 2007 in Mombasa), both at their debut in Boston Marathon, and Wilson Kiprop (World HM Champion last year). On track, Sylvia Kibet (silver medal in WCh 2009 in 5000m), Ruth Bosibori (former Worl Junior record holder of 3000 steeple, now coming back after giving birth to a baby last September) and, together with Moses Kiptanui, the number one of 1500m last year, the young Silas Kiplagat (3’29”27).

With these athletes, we cant use a “program of the camp”, but something strictly individual. That’s the reason because for the other athletes I’m an advisor, but not their coach.

Tinman, about the special block, the mean is to reach a massive physiological stimula, such as to produce the greatest possible adaptation in the body of the athlete.

This type of training is, of course, very much expensive, and cannot be used by athletes with little base, or still young.

I use about once every 3-4 weeks during the preparation for Marathon or HM. This training (from 45 to 60 km in the same day) includes a very high percentage (between 50% and 65%) of specific speed, and the remaining mileage is at speed 85%-90% of the specific.

For marathon, we have different kinds of "special blocks" :

A) SPECIAL BLOCK OF VOLUME

Example : Same in the morning and in the afternoon :

10 km at 90% of Marathon Pace + 10 > 15 km at full Marathon pace (globally 20 km at 90% + 20-30 km at Marathon pace).

In the case of an athlete running 2:06:36 (3:00 / km), can be 10k in 33' + 15 km in 45', both morning and afternoon.

In this way, we can run in one day more kilometers at specific speed, teaching our fibres to create the correct mixture of fuel reducing the request of glycogen (replaced

by the most powerful fatty acids) in order to last longer.

For helping the depletion of the tank, we also use not to have a lunch with carbohydrates : only some vegetable, and a lot of liquids. In any case, normally the training of the afternoon becomes better, and everybody is surprised...

B) SPECIAL MIXED BLOCK "A" (giving more importance to the Aerobic Power)

Ex :

a) 10 km at 90% of MP + 5 km at 105% (in the case of the above Marathon runner, 2'51" / km = 14'15")

b) 10 km at 90% + 10 x 1000m at 108% (2'46") rec. 2'

C) SPECIAL MIXED BLOCK "B" (giving more importance to the strength endurance)

Ex :

a) 10 km at 90% + 10 km at 100% (30')

b) 10 km at 90% + 15 x 500m climbing (10-12% gradient) very fast with long recovery (4'/5' in between)

We can organise a lot of different special blocks, depending on the period of the season and on the technical goals of the moment. I invite coaches to use their imagination.

One important point : when we want to bring somebody with high talent to become a top champion, WE NEED TO STIMULATE HIS QUALITIES. Everytime we go for specific training, the athlete must be able to produce quality, otherwise never can become a champion. When we speak about EXTENSION, we speak about QUALITY OF EXTENSION. Mileage without intensity is completely useless (good for rigeneration, but it's not training). So, the quality for a marathon runner is not to run a lot of 400m in 60", when the pace for the WR is 71" every 400m. Every speed faster than 5% of the race pace doesn't have any action on the specific performance (in this case, if the MP for the WE is 2'57" = 17"7 every 100m, 105% is 15"9 = 400m in 63"6 = 1000m in 2'39").

Quality is to run 14-16 km on track, mixing short and middle intervals (for example, 7 sets of 800 in 2'07" + 600 in 1'35" + 400 in 63" + 200 in 30", rec. 1'30") with recovery between every set of 4' / 5'.

Eveybody can understand that, following this plan, the first effect is to run very fast 10000m...

Mr. Canova -

Thank you!

Another question:

Do you think that runners who specialize in the 3,000-5000m events need marathon paced training in order to enhance their endurance for more race-specific training?

Tom

You can actually find some of Canova's information in the published notes from the summit he spoke at in Charlotte North Carolina. They have copies for sale at distancesummit.com

Hi Mr. Canova,

i have only one question:

Im a 19 years old 10km runner of 33:00min, but because of my training i think now its possible for me to run 32:30min. My normal easy run is about 12-20km in 3:55min/km - 4:10min/km

It is to fast?

Because a friend( 10.000m european champion 2006 in Göteburg) in my trainingsgroup moves to marathon this year. His normal run is about 4:00min/km. He run in his first HM 65:10min in Oktober.

Tim

seminary man wrote:

You can actually find some of Canova's information in the published notes from the summit he spoke at in Charlotte North Carolina. They have copies for sale at distancesummit.com

Seminary Man, how detailed are the notes?

Thanks.