Letsrun faithful: Help me get from 7:39 for 1.25 miles to 8:40 for 1.5 miles in 3 weeks

I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but when is this 1.5 mile race?

I would say maybe try a time trial of 1200-1600 trying to run even 87's (87,254,421,548) which will be right on pace to get under 840 for 1.5

I would do another workout of 8x400 with 60-90 sec rest...start at like 90 and get down to low 80s by the end. Focus on trying to run relaxed throughout the reps and concentrate on feeling smooth.

I emailed the president of the club for the exact date and got a reply back saying that the "window" is open for another 1 or 2 weeks and I must run it before February (at the very latest), because indoor meets are already starting up.

So I should be ready preferably within the next week or two.

In that case, 8x400 with 200 jog sounds good as one workout for the week. For the next one, I could try another time trial. In that case I think I will do a long run tomorrow, take Monday and Tuesday easy, and do the workout on Wednesday then time trialing Saturday.

It is threads like these that make me regain some faith in Letsrun again! I don't have much advice to offer, but it is great to see a passionate runner strive to reach their goals and other passionate runners give sincere advice and their own stories. Keep it up DNoH, given your goal that is not a bad race at all for a rust buster and people generally tend to drop a lot of time in their second race if they haven't raced in a while.

So I'm assuming you're planning on running your TT on Sunday, 1/30? Assuming that, here's how I would structure your training. (I think you have a solid shot at 8:40, by the way

Sunday, 1/16: 9-10 mile long run w/ last 2-3 quicker

Monday, 1/17: Easy day (double if desired)

Tuesday, 1/18: Speed workout of 8-10 x 400 @ 83-84 w/ 60-75s standing/SLOW jog recovery. Do the intervals until you can't hit the pace, up to 10 intervals--based on your workouts and race, I think you need to work a bit on underside speed and focus on hitting even splits.

Wednesday, 1/19: Easy day (double if desired)

Thursday, 1/20: Easy day (double if desired)

Friday, 1/21: Cutdown workout--1200m in 4:42-:45 (goal pace +30-35s/mile), 90s standing/SLOW jog recovery, 800m in 2:52-:53 (goal pace), 90s standing/SLOW jog recovery, 400m in 83-84 (just under goal pace). 400m walk/jog then 800m in 2:49-:50, 90s standing/SLOW jog recovery, 400m all-out. The first set shouldn't feel too bad, but the last 200 of the second 800 and the 400 should be hard. This is your last really hard workout.

Saturday, 1/22: Easy day (no double)

Sunday, 1/23: "Long" day of 7-8 w/ last 2 miles quicker

Monday, 1/24: Easy day (double if desired)

Tuesday, 1/25: 2 x 600 @ 2:08-:10 w/ 2 mins standing or SLOW jog recovery, 2 x 200 in 39-40 w/ 2 mins standing or SLOW jog recovery

Wednesday, 1/26: Easy day (double if desired)

Thursday, 1/27: 2 x 400 in 84-86 w/ 60-75s standing or SLOW jog recovery, 1 x 200 w/ first 150 in 30s and last 50 hard

Friday, 1/28: Off

Saturday, 1/29: 15-30mins easy, strides. Although if you have a pre-race day routine that you prefer, stick to that.

Sunday, 1/30: 8:34-8:36 2400m.

'I actually tried to do 10x400 today but stopped after 4 because I felt like crap'

There is your answer.

Find someone to train with or 'man up'

You have done pretty well against stiff competition in the most annoying fake prediction contest though

hey, nice work. i agree that there's plenty to learn from the race: don't go out too fast and don't relax too much in the middle, as already stated. also, it's likely good to learn to be comfortable running this pace alone, since you don't yet know if your 1.5-miler will be an individual or group time trial. i have the opposite point of view on this matter than you do, since i do the bulk of my running and nearly all my workouts alone; that is, i'm more comfortable without other bodies in my immediate vicinity while racing. you know, during long trail races, when you want to pass someone, you say "on your left" or "may i get by" and the other person politely complies and you both offer up some encouraging comment. different norms apply on the track ;-)

although i'm too inexperienced to offer specific advice, i'll still say to keep up frequent strides, speed work, race or race simulation, and maybe take one of your regular runs and do it as a fast finish (e.g., start out dead slow for the first mile, hasten a bit the second mile, then progressively push it for 1.5-2 miles before cooling down. maybe even do it on the track and mark your splits without actually looking at your watch; that is, hit the splits only to know what it is that you're effort level actually means after the fact rather than having the watch dictate your pace. this could provide interesting feedback regarding pacing. just a thought.

as for me, i'm still hurting and not running (or even jogging) at all, but i sense some improvement (had an hour-long massage yesterday, with all the focus on my injured area -- i think she could have gone deeper, but i deferred to the massage therapist's judgment. i'll take today off again and try an easy jog tomorrow after my ART session. i'm feeling mildly (but only mildly) optimistic about racing on saturday.

If you can, I would move your workout to Tuesday so that you would have an extra day recovery before the time trial. It probably would be a good idea to try to get it this coming Saturday so that if you don't make it for some reason you have an extra week to try for it.

oops. i replied before i saw the full additional page of responses. i agree with ex-xc chick that you do one workout of mixed speed and endurance on tuesday and do your time trial 1/22 so that you have an extra week if it flops the first time. do you have to do the time trial in front of the prospective coach? all by yourself? in some other context? if you have choice, construct the event to give you the best chance of success. if there are others trying to achieve the same goal, doing it together in an encouraging -- rather than a competitive -- manner might suit you all best.

I think a weekday is the most likely date because I don't think they have time trials on Sundays (and even Saturday). The sooner the better it is that I hit the standard and I need to give them a few days advance.

The other thing is I may not be able to do the workout until Wednesday because the track is booked by some club on Tuesdays.

I thought doing a time trial may be a good idea next weekend as well to get a sense of what shape I am in but I can incorporate different ideas.

Thanks NLS, hope you get back to running soon!

I have to do it in front of the prospective coach so that they have verification.

Thanks for the great advice so far, I am planning to incorporate as much as I can in the best possible way... such as some of the workouts, however I think it would be a good idea to get in a time trial effort next week as well to really see how close I am.

I did not feel the best on my run today so let us see how this 400 workout goes. I am thinking of doing 8-10x400 with 200 jog and going by feel on these so I don't start out too fast.

Whew finally had time to update after a busy day. I did 8x400 with 200 jog by myself today and in trainers. Splits were:

89, 90, 92, 92, 92, 93, 90, 88

I felt better on the first 2-3 and then started to feel it after getting to the fifth one. I decided after the 6th one was so slow to push it more on the 7th, then the 8th was run pretty hard (hard enough that I finished clutching my knees). The rest was between 75-90 seconds except for 1 or 2 where I was jogging/shuffling very slow and was more like 100 seconds.

I see that it is the middle where I falter, just like in a race. The thing is that I was apprehensive to push the pace on the 4th/5th etc. laps knowing that I still had a few more reps to go and was worried that if I pushed it there I might die on the last few, just like in a race.

Throughout the workout my legs could "feel it", and it was only on the last 2 that my breathing started getting much harsher (before my legs couldn't keep up with my breathing).

I feel that it would be a good idea to do that time trial then this weekend... having some spikes and possibly another person there could make the difference.

I have read these responses and thought that ALL of them are way too detailed. It is as simple as this:

1) you need to run 1.5 at 86.6 ... or an even-pace 11:33 3200m. That is all. All this mixing of speedwork and endurance and changing the days and recovery and long runs is all a waste.

2) If you ran HS you know what this is like? It's like the beginning of indoor or outdoor season where you should have just been running base miles.

3) When I was there, I ran 50 then 60 then 70 in the first three yrs in winter. Each year I ran my first indoor race about 25 seconds slower than my fastest for the year. So, 10:45 to start as a frosh and 10:20 at my fastest.

4) You can do this too off of JUST THE TRAINING you are doing so far.

5) If you can't run 8:40 off of consistent 60 mpw then you can't run well enough for that team ... simple as that.

If 8:40 is the MINIMUM then they will expect you to have 8:20 ability at least, by the time the racing starts. So clearly about 11:00 2mile ability. This is simple.

You aren't going to go from a 12:00 2miler to an 11:00 one in 1-6 mos no matter what training you do. Not if you have been training consistently over the last 6 mos ... and you say you have.

MORE BAD NEWS: You ran that 8x400 at 90.75 avg and that workout with 60 sec rests is more of an indicator workout of your pace for a 1600m. You took longer.

Therefore IT IS ROUGHLY indicative of a 6:10-20 1600m.

If I jumped on the bandwagon and believed that all the workout planning, proposed doubles, strides, pacework, 200s, 400s and whatever else people are saying, I could say that you MIGHT be able to improve from a 6:10 miler to a 12:20 2-miler over the next few months.

Some seasons in HS I was able to do that, run 5:06 for a time trial at the beginning and run 10:20 for 3200m at the end. OR 10th grade I ran 4:55 for a training 1600 and 9:50 at the end. So maybe you could do that? Even though you are older than I was and have less room to improve through maturity (none?), you likely have more room to improve through training since I was a very thorough and hard trainer.

But that still would leave you at a 12:20 2-miler when the TT calls for 11:40 ability AT LEAST and being on the team and thriving demands 11:00 ability.

I hope you make it and can make the team and enjoy yourself doing it and make great strides and next Christmas you can write a thread about how far you have come and all the great races you had with your new teammates. I really do.

But you have to be realistic.

trying to be reasonable, I don't think you saw that she raced a ~5:50 mile last week which was her first race in a long time. Running race pace can be hard when you are doing it alone.

Forget all about volume and keep it simple. You need to hold 5:46 mile pace for 1.5 miles. In the time you have left I would space out 3 or 4 key interval workouts at your goal pace- no slower. One every 3-4 days.

8 x 400s in 85-86 with a minute recovery

2 x 1200 under 4:20 with 2 min recovery

4 x 800s under 2:54 with 90 sec recovery

You need to go into these workouts well rested, so just run easy in between. If you can hit the times you should make it. I would probably fit a time trial in there somewhere the second week.

How you taper for the trial is also crucial. Two days out I would do 4 x 400, then run easy 20-30 min the day before.

trying to be reasonable wrote:

I have read these responses and thought that ALL of them are way too detailed. It is as simple as this:

1) you need to run 1.5 at 86.6 ... or an even-pace 11:33 3200m. That is all. All this mixing of speedwork and endurance and changing the days and recovery and long runs is all a waste.

So you mean if I want to hit 4:50 for the mile, all I have to do is run a 4:49 pace? That's just genius. I can't believe I didn't think of that before.

@ to be honest - you are right and I looked at that later. I was not trying to be brutal, I was trying to appeal to all of you with reason: you don't need to be running intervals to hit a 5:30-ish mile when you are 23. That is all she needs to run 8:40. Everything else I said is still true, you just need to adjust it for a 5:53 miler.

I am surprised that she could not at least run mile pace in a workout with long rests. Maybe they were not long rests when you are running 92-second reps?

@ naia champ - she has just 10 days, not 2 weeks. What intervals she does specifically are not going to alter her ability to run 86-sec laps ... that is splitting hairs. But your suggestions are good, just the rests are too short. You have to realize that you may be used to doing 65-sec 400s ... but she is doing them at 5:40-pace not 4:20 pace. And those longer reps? forget about 90s rests. longer rest all the way around.

Like I said, I hope she is successful. But acting like she is going to move from 5:53 ability to 5:40 in 10 days is a bit much. And if she does? If it took all these desperate measures and doubles and second-guessing and wild encouragement to run an 8:39 2400m then how fun will it be for her to be at the bare minimum on her team?

I was just trying to set some reasonable expectations for her, and make her realize that there is life after February 1, and if she keeps on putting in the consistent training that she will reach the highest levels she has hit so far in her running career. I'm sure that they will take someone for outdoor season also.

It seems like that situation where the freshman has to run under 5:00 in order to run indoor track and he starts running twice a day and arranging his life around running and cranks out 3x the miles of the other freshman and then when the TT comes he runs 4:59.7 and the coach reluctantly allows him to travel ... just so he can get his teeth kicked in by juniors and seniors running 4:20-4:40.

I was not trying to be mean, just realize that the 8:40 standard exists for a reason.

That is all. I want to wish you good luck in your quest. It may not seem like it but I am rooting for you and I am watching your progress with interest and anticipation.

Like the other people said, just run 400s , 800s and maybe 1000s and 1200s at the magic 86-second pace. If you can hold that pace consistently for 1-3 laps with rests mixed in, then you should be able to do 6 laps on game day.

ex-xc chick wrote:

trying to be reasonable wrote:

I have read these responses and thought that ALL of them are way too detailed. It is as simple as this:

1) you need to run 1.5 at 86.6 ... or an even-pace 11:33 3200m. That is all. All this mixing of speedwork and endurance and changing the days and recovery and long runs is all a waste.

So you mean if I want to hit 4:50 for the mile, all I have to do is run a 4:49 pace? That's just genius. I can't believe I didn't think of that before.

Nope. You are reading that wrong. I didn't say that in order to run 8:40 she just needs to run 8:40 pace. I was saying that her requirement to make the team is simply 6 laps at 86.6 pace. She and everybody else were frankly overthinking it. I think that everybody who has run HS or college knows what is required for a mile or 2mile race. We have all run them. I think it was complicated by the fact that it is a 2400m TT. I was just pointing out that this would be equivalent to an even-pace 11:33.

This should be something that any woman who is capable of it can relate to because they have likely run 3200s and 3ks in the 11:00-11:30-12:00 range before.

I guess what I was getting at and didn't write it out well is: How do you NOT know what it is like to train for an 11:30 3200m? How do you not know what interval times it takes to be ready to run 5:30/11:30? If you have no idea because you have never run that fast before, how do you think lightning will strike and you will run it now?

Explaining it made a lot more sense. I still disagree with you, but I can understand where you're coming from.

To me I could totally understand someone being a talented (define that however you want) runner and still have no idea of training concepts. When I ran in high school I kept no log, had no idea of what mileage I ran, and really couldn't tell you what my average splits were in a 400 workout. Five years ago I was running ok times coming out of high school (low 19's for a 5k), but I didn't know how I got there. Through college I learned to keep detailed records and now could easily tell you what workouts are effective for me in what stages of training.

You're other point I believe was that even if she makes it she will not be ready to make the improvement expected by the team. The reason I would tend to disagree with this is that she already has a history of high mileage which I believe is much harder to develop than speed. That 5:46 pace that she needs isn't a stellar track time by any means, but if you are looking at trying to peak in March or April for some road races then it is a little different. I would say that most teams would love to have a female who could hold a 5:46 for 5k (just under 18min), and I think that desperate for help could hit that by the end of the season.