Interesting to me how Cierpinski was a "one-off" DDR successful experiment. Reminds me of a certain Cuban around that time.
Interesting to me how Cierpinski was a "one-off" DDR successful experiment. Reminds me of a certain Cuban around that time.
Hawkeye wrote:
Yeah, he was a Stasi informer or else. Like Heike Dreschler.
Kenny Moore wrote that you knew he was behind you because he slapped the road so hard, a stark contrast to Shorter or Viren who just floated along.
Ah those East German drugs.
The US COVERED UP DOZENS OF POSITIVE TESTS AT THE '84 Olympic trials. East Germany cheated but the only reason we know that now is because there was no 'private' life in the DDR everything was documented. The US is completely different and we will never know. But if you real believe the US has been clean above and beyond other nations you are deluded.
Only reason he gets accused wrote:
Only reason why he is accused of doping is because he beat your beloved Frank Shorter. Sorry, but he got beat by the better person, not because of drugs. But, because he was the better man. Due to better training. And, he is not a sissy who accusses others of doping almost 44 years later just because he lost to him.
Well said.
Shorter was the main person who spurred the accusations about the better runner who beat him.
Supposedly the German government gave Shorter detailed inside documents detailing their entire doping program.
Now how stupid is that. Seriously. The German government gave inside information to Frank Shorter?????
Total BS.
Typical American response wrote:
well,, wrote:
Go fck yourself, you pathetic troll.
Typical American response
He's from Papua.
Historians Paul Dimeo, Thomas M. Hunt and Richard Horbury wrote in 2011 an interesting paper titled The Individual and the State: A Social Historical Analysis of the East German ‘Doping System’ in which they deal with the actual administration of the 14.25 hormone program. In one part of the essay they state that there were "diverse ways in which those involved in sport responded to the pressures around them" even when there were instructions from above how the hormone program should be operated and there was even a person named to investigate the instances when hormones weren't "administered correctly by the coaches". While the article has the horror stories about teen girls being treated with Oral-Turinabol, the authors still conclude that coaches and athletes "did have some power to speak up against the doping procedures" and they quote from a testimonial of one Dr. Buhl (described as "the group doctor for running") who gave the following testimonial during the 1997 doping trials:
I could have voiced my concerns as a specialist in individual cases, and I actually did speak up in certain cases. As an example, I remember three athletes that reported subjective disadvantages resulting from the application of this therapy. Discussions were held with these athletes to explain their therapy, and these meetings led the athletes to reject further therapy. These athletes were Waldemar Cierpinski, Frank Baumgartel and Gunhild Hoffmeister. I led these discussions with these athletes.
The exact years isn't clear from the quotation, but the authors state that Cierpinski was one of "these older athletes" and in his "mid-20s", so it took place c:a 1975 (he was born in 1950).
Aragon wrote:
Historians Paul Dimeo, Thomas M. Hunt and Richard Horbury wrote in 2011 an interesting paper titled The Individual and the State: A Social Historical Analysis of the East German ‘Doping System’ in which they deal with the actual administration of the 14.25 hormone program. In one part of the essay they state that there were "diverse ways in which those involved in sport responded to the pressures around them" even when there were instructions from above how the hormone program should be operated and there was even a person named to investigate the instances when hormones weren't "administered correctly by the coaches".
While the article has the horror stories about teen girls being treated with Oral-Turinabol, the authors still conclude that coaches and athletes "did have some power to speak up against the doping procedures" and they quote from a testimonial of one Dr. Buhl (described as "the group doctor for running") who gave the following testimonial during the 1997 doping trials:
I could have voiced my concerns as a specialist in individual cases, and I actually did speak up in certain cases. As an example, I remember three athletes that reported subjective disadvantages resulting from the application of this therapy. Discussions were held with these athletes to explain their therapy, and these meetings led the athletes to reject further therapy. These athletes were Waldemar Cierpinski, Frank Baumgartel and Gunhild Hoffmeister. I led these discussions with these athletes.
The exact years isn't clear from the quotation, but the authors state that Cierpinski was one of "these older athletes" and in his "mid-20s", so it took place c:a 1975 (he was born in 1950).
Wow, how surprising that the German doping Dr. happens to exonerate the DDR's top three athletes! All those doped B-Teamers, but their creme de le creme was pure as could be.
Right.
Reminds me of those who claim that only Kenyan B-teamers benefit from dope.
Of course he was doping but did he have a choice? What would have happened to him if he said no? Probably would have been shot.
YMMV wrote:
Wow, how surprising that...
How surprising also that some historians and doping specialists go through the original material and draw some revisionist conclusions from it and how equally surprising that a random jerk-off like me found that quotation almost literally in five minutes when I was interested in what academic literature knows about the subject.
I don't know if they are right or not in believing what Dr. Buhl says and whether it can be reconciled with the "62"-material brought up by W. Franke, but somehow these articles by B. Berendonk and Franke and the GDR doping book by Steven Ungerleider ("The Faust's Gold") are very short of any details on the males taking hormones or about the Höppner and the other doping doctors claiming the benefits of the substances for men in endurance running (although there is some female mid-D benefit mentioned in passing).
Here is some great footage of Cierpinski's smooth and efficient running action.
I love the part he passes the hobby cyclists on his training run.
Jealous American haters wrote:
Jealous American haters wrote:
Only people who think he was dirty are jealous American haters.
No proof he doped, ran similar times to Rodgers. No one accuses him of doping.
What's your take on East German swimmer Kornelia Ender? Was she clean? She competed in Montreal 1976. Took home a lot of hardware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornelia_EnderFred Gwynne wrote:
Of course he was doping but did he have a choice? What would have happened to him if he said no? Probably would have been shot.
No, but he probably would have been dropped from their athletics program and become just another Eastern bloc functionary instead of double Olympic champion.
Keeping an Open Mind wrote:
Jealous American haters wrote:
No proof he doped, ran similar times to Rodgers. No one accuses him of doping.
What's your take on East German swimmer Kornelia Ender? Was she clean? She competed in Montreal 1976. Took home a lot of hardware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornelia_Ender
Micheal Phelps won a lot of medals too, did he dope? Also, this was swimming. Something they invested a lot more into, they didn't invest much into the marathon. Waldemar Cierpinski was only selected onto the team by the skins of his teeth. For all the Americans(frank shorter) who accuse him of doping. Just compare his training to shorter's. His training was much more marathon specific. He wasn't doing what frank was doing which is train like a 5k specialist w/ added focus on the long run. Without looking at either names and just focus on the training, it is clear that Waldemar Cierpinski was training more specifically for the marathon. I.e. how most elite marathon runners train today. And the fact he beat shorter should be no surprise in retrospect. But no, Americans who are jealous will just deny this fact and say it was just drugs. Despite no proof he himself doped.
Cierpinski wrote:
Indiana wrote:
At age 51, I know I'm up there with the old timers...anyway, the thing that struck me watching Cierpinski is that he had an incredibly smooth stride albeit with a slight "bounce" that hinted at great elastic recoil in his legs. As much as Frank has been (appropriately) showcased as an elegant runner in regards to his stride, Cierpinski did not look "clunky" or awkward running beside Frank. Even allowing for Frank stiffening up somewhat in the rain, Cierpinski clearly showed that he could cover a lot of ground in an efficient manner. His run at Montreal looked just as smooth. Doping or not, he obviously had great talent.
Indiana
Here is some great footage of Cierpinski's smooth and efficient running action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SKXw2tS20&lc=z23nwptoilaytzwy304t1aokggvpusksg5hzokmf1eh5rk0h00410.1545933891848706
Cierpinski has one of the best marathon running form/action.
It is up there with Bikila, Lopes and Kipchoge IMO.
The slo-mo footage of his form is great. I believe the footage is from the Kosice marathon in 1985.
Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:
Only reason he gets accused wrote:
Only reason why he is accused of doping is because he beat your beloved Frank Shorter. Sorry, but he got beat by the better person, not because of drugs. But, because he was the better man. Due to better training. And, he is not a sissy who accusses others of doping almost 44 years later just because he lost to him.
Evidence suggests that Cierpinski was part of the the East Germany State-Sponsored doping machine back then.
Don't you do any research on the historical record of doping in E. Germany & the Soviet block nations? E. Germany was bad with forced doping of it's Olympic athletes. The Soviet Union was also out of control (though things aren't much better with present day Russia. Lol.).
Cierpinski was listed in E. Germany's top secret doping program "State Plan 14:25:"
http://www.espn.com/espn/page2/story?page=joyce/080822"Things changed in 1998, when a German scientist, Dr. Werner Franke, managed to get into the archives of Stasi, East Germany's secret police force. By the time the GDR collapsed, Stasi's spooks had managed to destroy most of its incriminating paperwork, but not a file on State Plan 14:25, which Dr. Franke uncovered at the Stasi headquarters in Leipzig. State Plan 14:25 contained details of East Germany's drug program for its Olympic athletes. The file implicated many gold medalists, five of them winners in track and field in Montreal. Cierpinski's name was at the top of Page 105. He was No. 62."
More declassified documents on E. Germany's steroid & androgen program with it's athletes:
http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/43/7/1262
+1 excellent, well stated.
YMMV wrote:
Interesting to me how Cierpinski was a "one-off" DDR successful experiment. Reminds me of a certain Cuban around that time.
Hmmm, who could that have been?
Micheal Phelps won a lot of medals too wrote:
Keeping an Open Mind wrote:
What's your take on East German swimmer Kornelia Ender? Was she clean? She competed in Montreal 1976. Took home a lot of hardware.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornelia_EnderMicheal Phelps won a lot of medals too, did he dope? Also, this was swimming. Something they invested a lot more into, they didn't invest much into the marathon. Waldemar Cierpinski was only selected onto the team by the skins of his teeth. For all the Americans(frank shorter) who accuse him of doping. Just compare his training to shorter's. His training was much more marathon specific. He wasn't doing what frank was doing which is train like a 5k specialist w/ added focus on the long run. Without looking at either names and just focus on the training, it is clear that Waldemar Cierpinski was training more specifically for the marathon. I.e. how most elite marathon runners train today. And the fact he beat shorter should be no surprise in retrospect. But no, Americans who are jealous will just deny this fact and say it was just drugs. Despite no proof he himself doped.
This thread is hilarious. According to most people on LRC, there hasn´t been a clean African runner on the world stage the last 25 years - everyone who dares to think differently is utterly ridiculed here - but then there is a thread on Cierpinski, who was from East Germany, the mother of all doping powerhouses, and he is defended by everyone and their fcking mothers.
YMMV wrote:
Wow, how surprising that the German doping Dr. happens to exonerate the DDR's top three athletes! All those doped B-Teamers, but their creme de le creme was pure as could be.
Right.
Reminds me of those who claim that only Kenyan B-teamers benefit from dope.
Random comments here = testifying under oath? Seriously?
It would've been interesting to know whether Hermann Buhl was a witness or a defendant, because he if he was the former, whe might've perjured himself had he lied intentionally. Not that good idea anyway to make up stuff too much if the prosecutor has access to the available records of the doping program and other material. What if the athletes in question had sued the state and wanted compensation for health damages?
The document stating that Cierpinski was the subject "62" when he was planned to be administered with c:a 600 mg of steroids annually is from 1974, so there is no contradiction in him complaining about the program a year or two later.
It is also interesting that Buhl was one of the first GDR doctors telling about the program in 1990 when the system collapsed. Most likely still told not that much what wasn't already suspected to have happened but the guy spoke without a gun on his head.
Discussions about doping seem like a medieval, scholastic debate. Very quickly black and white painting is created. One the one hand the cheaters who pump themselves shamelessly, covered by a system. On the other side the true athletes, who work incredibly hard, forsake all the pleasures of life, live on water and vegetables and train in the wilderness in the rain, ice and snow like at the Rocky Balboa films. The classic fight of good against evil.
We all know that in the time of the Cold War the GDR was a dirty system and I am not willing to defend anything. But I don't believe in black and white painting in the top sport.
How about the USA athletics team? They are not all clean themselves especially their team in the 90's and 2000's.
Americans are as suspect as any of the other countries stereotyped as cheaters.