WTF Ryan Hall

gonchar wrote:

Fact is that Hall is not now, and has never been, a HUNGRY RACER. I saw it in HS, Stanford, and now as a Pro. His natual talent, natural stride, natural wings are unquestionable. He loves to train, loves to run, loves the sound of the heartrate, loves the Zen of running. But does anyone really consider him a great RACER? A guy who is going to go to battle it out when conditions are tough, when its 2 or 3 mano a mano. Ritz has done it. Hall to me is a front runner with a world class stride. When has he ever dug down deep and battled to the death to win?

NYC wrote:

uuumm...,,,, ever heard of the Olympic Trials ?

Or was it ,you, who won it ?

Precisely, lots of really short memories around here.

I love when they ask Hall "would you like to run Track this summer ...like Ritz", the answer he should give is this,... Ritz and I are totally different, you are talking about Ritz the American Record Holder in the 5k, I will never have that speed, so for me to jump into a meet at say Heyward Field would be insane. I would get beaten bad. Actually Ritz is more a track guy than a marathoner and until he either breaks my half marathon record or run 2:06 or beats me convincingly I will still consider him more a track guy then marathoner.

no I am not faster than him wrote:

Hall is typical of the modern American distance runner- loves to TALK (and talk and talk) about his training, but is scared to race. On the rare occasion he actually does line up, he's usually got an excuse ready- "I'm out of shape, I'm training through..."

Shorter, Rodgers, et al back in the day WERE NOT like this!

_______________________

That is exactly what I have been saying.

The American distance running seemed much better back in the day.

I mean, Rodgers ran a 2:09 at Boston while stopping to tie his shoe!!!

www.666energy.com wrote:

If I were Ryan Hall I would more or less disappear after Boston, get a new cell phone number and email address, and only give that to my coach and family, disappear with my coach, wife and dog to some place in Wyoming, Colorado or Switzerland (not St. Moritz) and just TRAIN. Then show up at Berlin about a day or two before the marathon, refuse ALL interviews, and just RUN FOR FUN.

I don't think you can run good at Berlin after you ran Boston earlier that year. Those two races are too close together. Has anyone ever run a great Boston AND a great early fall Marathon within the last 10 years?

toast wrote:

I love when they ask Hall "would you like to run Track this summer ...like Ritz", the answer he should give is this,... Ritz and I are totally different, you are talking about Ritz the American Record Holder in the 5k, I will never have that speed, so for me to jump into a meet at say Heyward Field would be insane. I would get beaten bad. Actually Ritz is more a track guy than a marathoner and until he either breaks my half marathon record or run 2:06 or beats me convincingly I will still consider him more a track guy then marathoner.

So if he gets "beaten bad" what would happen? Would Ryan Hall cry to his mommy? Would he need his blanket? I don't think so. It's often very therapeutic to get your ass kicked now and then.

Sagarin wrote:I've offered my sentiments before (oh, wait, that's right -- those who can, do, and those who can't or didn't, coach)

And those who can't coach, administrate.

Hall didn't have significantly worse track credentials than Ritz prior to last year. There was the 8:11 and the 27:3x, but they were comparable at mile and five k. My guess is that Hall really thrived on marathon training when it was new and different, a combination that produces great results frequently, but that he got out of contact with the faster work that had immediately preceded the marathon training and enabled the latter to be so effective. He's mentioned going back to the track in the summer for years now but never made a serious attempt at it. He did crush the field at the trials in the marathon last time, but that wasn't because he was such a great racer; it was because he was far, far stronger than anyone in the field at that time. He wasn't stale yet and had the 2:06 still in his legs. At this point, I don't get the sense that he is going to do the smart thing, the thing backed by so much evidence over the years (and his own decline), at least not for years more. Maybe he will get back without it, or adjust his training to increase the tempo at altitude, or race more prior to his marathons, but there's been no evidence that he will.

So do you follow him around the mountain, read his training plans, and talk with him on a daily basis about his training? You don't know what he's doing up there stop talking out your ass!

Lets face it guys, when it comes down to it Hall is our best shot at winnning any major marathon. Last year he really closed a lot in the latter part of the race, if he would have conserved early on instead of leading he probably could have at least nabbed second, I don't see any other U.S. marathoners doing this anywhere.

Ritz is coming along, but he is dangerous at track-10k distances while his half and marathon times are average for competition. I like the guy a lot but some people just have their "thing". For Ritz in the shorter races and for Ryan it's obviously the marathon.

hardset nipples wrote:

the reality of it wrote:

Pretty much all the best marathoners are successful on the track, even after they turn to the marathon-at least in the modern era.

Khannouchi, Wanjiru, Kebede, Kwambai, Goumri, Gharib, Lel, Cheruiyot, Merga, Rothlin, da Costa? You're confusing your love of what Ritz did last year post-London with what's the actual norm up top in the marathon. And Ritz hasn't even gone sub-2:10 in the marathon, so he has yet to really show proof of anything at all with regard to the marathon.

It has NOTHING to do with Ritz. I have been saying this for years about Hall. Ever since 2008 when he bombed in Beijing he has looked different from the runner that ripped off a couple 4:25 miles during a half marathon and looked comfortable. Now, he can run 4:55-5:05 pace easily, but when the pace drops to 4:45 and below he gets dropped hard. He has no more change of pace. He closes the final miles well but is no longer in contention for the win.

As for the other marathoners you mention...

Wanjiru ran 26:4x for 10k at a young age-it is the world junior record.

Goumri ran 12:5low for 5k

Rothlin and da Costa are irrelevant, to put it bluntly.

As for Khannouchi, Kebede, Gharib, etc...just because they don't race on the track doesn't mean they don't train on the track, or at least do more fast paced work than Hall does. Lel clearly does some fast paced work. Khannouchi outkicking Geb and Tergat shows he had that change of pace.

The thing about the marathon at the elite level, everyone has incredible endurance. It's those with the speed and change of pace-and more importantly the confidence to use it at mile 15-18-that end up winning the race. Hall certainly had it in 2007 at the Olympic trials when he pulled away at mile 18 and ripped some 4:35 miles, crushing Ritz by 2 minutes over the last 8 miles.

He doesn't have it any more.

So it's true except when it isn't? 2 for 11 is not so hot, to put it bluntly, 2 for 12 when Ritz is included (except he's still not one of "the best marathoners").

did you just say Hall bombed in Beijing??? He got 10th freakin' place. Did he win or medal? No. But he beat most of the field comprised of guys with similar talent and similar PRs. just shut up. bombed! ha. you're an idiot.

You can't train for the track and for the marathon at the same time. You can only serve one master.

You can only serve one master at a time, this is true. But only serving the one master which makes him run 26.2 for so many years in a row without any other tasks for another master apparently has made him quite stale. Is that enough of a metaphor for you?

Which is why so many are saying he needs to get back to the track for the summer, maybe hit some shorter road races for the fall, maybe even that HM world champs late this year(?), leave the marathon master for a while, see what track master has to offer over on his plantation. THEN get geared up for the marathon next spring.

seriously?wowzers wrote:

did you just say Hall bombed in Beijing??? He got 10th freakin' place. Did he win or medal? No. But he beat most of the field comprised of guys with similar talent and similar PRs. just shut up. bombed! ha. you're an idiot.

Alright, maybe bombed is too strong. But I don't think hi fans were happy with his 10th place finish, and I don't think he was either. He was never really in the race, and finished 5-6 minutes off the leader. This was very different then the guy who had won the trials running 1:02 the last hilly 13.1 miles looking unbeatable.

I think there is a lot of truth to the "different runner" thing. He hasn't been nearly as explosive the last couple of years, and he needs to find that again.

I also think there is a lot of truth to the "either he wins out front or bombs" theory. He has gotten a lot better about it over the years. I think gaining maturity and being married have helped his self-esteem or something (he used to bomb a LOT of races...). Still, he could stand to improve more in the confidence/ferocity department.

In Beijing it was a one man show... nobody could beat the LRC no 1 marathoner in that race, in those circumstances.

Hall's marathons are pretty consisted, so I wouldn't worry too much: he's got a shot for the Boston win and also Chicago this fall.

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

My guess is that Hall really thrived on marathon training when it was new and different, a combination that produces great results frequently, but that he got out of contact with the faster work that had immediately preceded the marathon training and enabled the latter to be so effective.

Thanks for saying (so well) what I've been trying to say (so wordily) for the last two years. I was one of the people (under a different moniker) who predicted that Ritz would beat Hall in Beijing, precisely because of Hall's lack of racing (esp. shorter races).

Even at lower levels of ability, so many runners benefit from track-oriented, faster work followed by a *phase* (not a career) of more marathon-specific training. Good example: Joe Henderson, formerly editor of Runner's World and popularizer of long slow distance (LSD) training. He started doing LSD after getting stale from track training, then ran a marathon--followed, of course, by a whole career of LSD, marathons, writing, editing, etc.

So what was Henderson's fastest marathon? His VERY FIRST. Granted, he had gotten burned out on 1960s-style track training; but for his first marathon he still had that strengthening/turnover/change-of-pace stuff in his legs, and after a *period* (not a career) of longer, easier running his legs were fresh for a pretty good marathon.

Granted, different things work for different people, but Hall does not appear to be an all-slow-twitch individual. By losing touch with speed (including *shorter races*, which offer a very specific kind of training effect), he has needlessly given away part of his conditioning--more importantly, part of his racing ability.

BTW, I'm a big fan of Hall's. I feel his talent is practically without limit.

Since his "breakthrough" began, his two huge performances were Houston and the Olympic Trials in NYC. He ran with energy at the end of those races and seemed on another level.

At the races after those performances, it seemed he was disappointed and tired in his effort (although London was a great race, he seemed dead tired at the end).

Just my two cents...train like Bill Rodgers used to and just jump into a race, take off like a bat out of hell and enjoy.

That much pressure seems to lead Ryan to disappointment. He's got another great performance in him...

I think he was tired in London 08 because he was running a 2:06, with a 62 first half. Just a guess, I've never done either of those things but they sure sound tiring.