If Adam runs 2:12 in the Marathon he will be Salazars BEST EVER

MSCoach wrote:

Yes it is..... and the rest of it is elitist, lazy a$$, immaturity.

I'll take the blue collar BS.

RomantiCism.

You strike me as someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'll stoop... and draw conclusions from thin air...

... you strike me as exactly the kind of person I'm talking about. No clue about the rest of the world "beneath" you. I'll bet you're the kind of guy that pulls out of a race when the dude in front of you starts pulling away and you just don't have it. You explain away your sub par performance to a small injury or illness and you probably do it right in front of the person who just dusted you in an attempt to lessen their victory and maintain your delusional air of superiority. And then to top it off you show up the next weekend, win a race, and talk about the great training and how it's all paying off, totally forgetting the "illness" or "injury" that held you back the previous week.

So, please stick to the discussion.

MSCoach wrote:

I'll stoop... and draw conclusions from thin air...

... you strike me as exactly the kind of person I'm talking about. No clue about the rest of the world "beneath" you. I'll bet you're the kind of guy that pulls out of a race when the dude in front of you starts pulling away and you just don't have it. You explain away your sub par performance to a small injury or illness and you probably do it right in front of the person who just dusted you in an attempt to lessen their victory and maintain your delusional air of superiority. And then to top it off you show up the next weekend, win a race, and talk about the great training and how it's all paying off, totally forgetting the "illness" or "injury" that held you back the previous week.

So, please stick to the discussion.

Like Bekele and Geb have been doing lately?

phillemon hanneck when he was 20 ran a 3:53 mile and at age 22 ran 7:43 and 13:14. He was equal if not better than Rupp at an early age. He just got involved in road racing to make a living. Where as Rupp had every possible advantage Nike gave him from high school on.

How many international medals for Hall, Rupp, A. Goucher, and Barringer?

Yes, they are training harder than we can imagine. It's their JOB. They don't do anything else for a living. The original point was that Salazar is not producing in the marathon. He has athletes that do nothing but train, sleep, race, eat, get massages, and show up for promotional obligations. That's all they do. And my point is that they do this with so much technology, support, and $$$ behind them that, theoretically, they have all the advantages over their non US opponents. And they aren't winning. They can "talk" about medalling all day. Actually "doing" it might not take what they've been given and what they have access to. I really think they would be better off if in a more adverse, less plush (for lack of a better term) situation.

Not arguing with you there....

MSCoach wrote:

I'll stoop... and draw conclusions from thin air...

... you strike me as exactly the kind of person I'm talking about. No clue about the rest of the world "beneath" you. I'll bet you're the kind of guy that pulls out of a race when the dude in front of you starts pulling away and you just don't have it. You explain away your sub par performance to a small injury or illness and you probably do it right in front of the person who just dusted you in an attempt to lessen their victory and maintain your delusional air of superiority. And then to top it off you show up the next weekend, win a race, and talk about the great training and how it's all paying off, totally forgetting the "illness" or "injury" that held you back the previous week.

So, please stick to the discussion.

I was sticking to the discussion and was responding to your very words, not making things up out of thin air.

Your point seemed to be that certain runners will never win medals because they have it too good and aren't hungry.

Based on what you wrote, my thought is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Rolo Tony wrote:

With all due respect, and also not trying to be contentious, but it's easy for you to sit here and make these claims. If you listen to the top athletes, they're not talking about training tables and the clock. They're talking about winning medals. I don't see any evidence for what you're saying. Those guys are training harder than we can imagine, and their mental toughness/will to win have been apparent over the years.

With no undue disrespect, talk is cheap. It's about building the ability race, not just pace. Everybody at that level "trains harder than we can imagine" and possesses the baseline of mental toughness/will to do that. This is in the psychological realm and all the Alter-Gs and BreatheRite strips in the world do nothing to engender that. It has to be learned through experience, through judicious trial and error. Some coaches protect their athletes from getting hurt at all in racing over their heads because, right or wrong, they believe that it would mentally destroy their athletes to do otherwise.

Yes, I agree with all of that...

Never win medals? That did come out of thin air....

I'm questioning if "corralling" our talent (as Salazar and Nike are so deftly doing) and giving them everything they could possibly need is the best way to maximize both talent and toughness. Just a suggestion on my part, but is it turning our talent soft and in turn creating the idea that all the trappings of being an elite athlete will give our gifted athletes an advantage in producing medals?

Who's to say that if you took some Kenyans and Ethiopians and gave them these advantages they wouldn't kick our asses even harder?

Because kicking ass isn't a purely physical endeavor.

$$$ is why top level guys run for Alberto.

If a 29:00 guy runs for Hansons and Brooks he will run 2:12 or better but will make about $40k a year.

It will take a 28:00 guy to run 2:12 for Alberto and Nike. But the guy will be paid three times as much.

I think that if the Hansons trained a group of sub 28:00 10k guys that they would all be running 2:08 in the marathon but none of them would make as much as a Chris Solinsky makes right now.

There is far more involved in this sport than simple improvement. If I am 25 years old and told that I can improve or I can be paid 3 times as much, I would choose the cash.

"I think that if the Hansons trained a group of sub 28:00 10k guys that they would all be running 2:08 in the marathon but none of them would make as much as a Chris Solinsky makes right now.

There is far more involved in this sport than simple improvement. If I am 25 years old and told that I can improve or I can be paid 3 times as much, I would choose the cash."

Another person that has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Brooks athletes are not eligible to run with Alberto and Nike athletes are not eligible to run with Hansons. This is just one of the major problems with development. This is why Team Minnesota and Bay Area Track Club and Mammoth Track Club does not have a shoe sponsor. This allows them to work with anyone they want.

Not eligible? Would Salazar even have any athletes of note if Nike didn't push them to him?

Viewing from another way wrote:

Tell me what a guy that runs 27:40 should run for a marathon. What about 28:00, 28:20, 28:40, 29:00? I don't care what the charts say. You tell me.

I will take a shot.

27:40 should be able to run sub 2:08

28:00 should be able to run sub 2:10

28:20 should be able to run sub 2:12

28:40 should be able to run sub 2:13:30

29:00 should be able to run sub 2:15

These are rough estimates off of the mercier equivelancy standards. I think that we can use these to judge whether or not a coach has been successful.

I was shocked when doing this myself.

American coaches don't coach the marathon. You need to move to Japan to find a coach that consistently hits those numbers.

I don't think that Salazar has ever had a marathoner meet those numbers.

Mahon has had Hall reach those numbers but that is only because he never put together a good 10000.

Hudson NOPE.

Larson NOPE.

Hansons YES.

Why are these guys so overlooked in the marathon? They have 29:30 guys running 2:15 or better.