Shalane's longest LR ever was 12mi

bad thread

Shalane did not win bronze without running further than 12miles... that was pre cook, i.e years before Bronze.

Is it possible? that is another debate.

Is Malmo being a facetious prick by pretending <12mile long runs is standard for 10km runners? Undoubtedly.

not so fast malmo wrote:

Lets just say I'm in the former range rather than the later. I treat every long run as important and serving a purpose: mentally, physically, and preparing for the race day course and conditions, whether hard or slow.

I don't care about how fast you are, but as a coach i'm interested in what your 2 times are, and other race performances. So lets hear em'

Why, so you can Google stalk me? I don't need another coach.

That is nothing.... wrote:

Grete Waitz won the first marathon she raced (New York), beating the world record by over 2 minutes (2:32:30).

Her longest run before that race was 12 miles.

I would cite that as evidence that the long run is not a critical part of marathon prep.

Total volume of mileage is far more important than any single "long run".

Why don't you guys heed malmo's advice?

bigwart wrote:

Is Malmo being a facetious prick by pretending <12mile long runs is standard for 10km runners? Undoubtedly.

Huh? When did I ever say that?

malmo wrote:

bigwart wrote:

Is Malmo being a facetious prick by pretending <12mile long runs is standard for 10km runners? Undoubtedly.

Huh? When did I ever say that?

You didn't, but you did say that finding out that a world class 10k runner, especially a woman, doesn't do more than that should be a "yawner". The two express a similar sentiment, and that's about it.

not so fast malmo wrote:

That's great you trained with some of the best, but what did you learn from them? Why do you think you came up short, or have you figured that out? Was it your mental approach on the long run, thinking it's unimportant? You certainly had the steeple and half nailed, but not the marathon. It shows how different the shorter events are compared to the marathon.

Yes, it shows that each runner body is suited for a specific range of events. I suppose your feel that my 100/200/400/800/1500 should be much better too? Do you really believe that having an AR at shorter events translates to the same at the marathon? It was a good thing that I trained with, and trained like, so many of the top 100 Americans in the marathon. Without that knowledge I certainly would have run slower than 2:13.

Which race did I come up short? I thought that I always ran about right. There is only one winner in each race, and it's been my experience that the highest places in marathons go to those who have the best genetic phenotypes - small and/or skinny, with narrow shoulders. Not everyone is born with a marathoner's ideal body type, you know -- certainly not me. You can't teach small, ya know? Perhaps had I had the prescience and luck to run Chicago on a cold day rather than New York on a warm day I'd had lived up to your expectations?

Where is your evidence that I didn't do long runs? Please, tell me when?

eojtlc wrote:

You didn't, but you did say that finding out that a world class 10k runner, especially a woman, doesn't do more than that should be a "yawner". The two express a similar sentiment, and that's about it.

No it doesn't.

i personally found that long (slow) runs are overrated. in college i ran my best (won ncaa 10k) with a "long run" of 12 miles, although my workouts often totaled 16+ miles including the warm-up and cool-down. i ran my worst when i experimented doing higher mileage with long runs of 16-20 miles. i could rock long steady state and tempo workouts, but anything faster paced (ex. 5k/10k races) sucked. longer/higher mileage seemed to wear down my body and take away from my quality days. long runs/high mileage might work for some people, but it definitely didn't work for me. different training works for different people.

nsmb, old and slow wrote:

The more general point is, it's always fascinating to observe people's diligence in preserving their belief systems in the face of the real world's tendency to contradict them.

Very good observation. I couldn't have said it any better. You mind if I borrow those words in the future?

The nattering nabobs of running belief systems would be bewildered to read what follows.

Alberto Salazar, training for NCAA team XC championship.

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 13.0 miles. Longest run is 15 miles.

Todd Williams, training for the still-standing AR in the 15k.

10 weeks, average daily mileage is 14.2 miles. Average long run is 10.2 miles. Longest run is 12 miles.

Alberto Salazar 1978 Cross Country season

Sept 5-11 105 miles

9/5 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles

9/6 T - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles

9/7 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles

9/8 T - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles

9/9 F - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400 jog PM 4 miles

9/11 S - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles

Sept 12-18 108 miles

9/12 M - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles

9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy

9/14 W - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles

9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles

9/16 F - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles

9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy

9/18 S - AM 13 miles

Sept 19-25 110 miles

9/19 M - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles

9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles

9/21 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles

9/23 F - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles

9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total

9/25 S - AM 11 miles easy PM 2 miles with stairs

Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles

9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)

9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown

9/28 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles

9/30 F - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown

10/2 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles

10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown

10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30

10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles

10/7 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy

10/9 S - AM 14 miles (around the Butte)

Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles

10/10 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy

10/12 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles

10/14 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown

10/16 S - AM 14 miles

Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles

10/17 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill, 4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown

10/19 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.

10/21 F - AM 6 miles, sore tendon

10/22 S - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles still painful, but better

10/23 S - AM 13 miles

Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles

10/24 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown

10/26 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

10/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles and strides

10/28 F - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy

10/30 S - AM 15 miles (note: had Alberto run his usual 13-14 miles he wouldn’t have made 100, LOL!)

Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles

10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown

11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown

11/2 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles

11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330

11/4 F - AM 4 miles PM rest

11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)

11/6 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles

11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown

11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)

11/9 W - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles

11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown

11/11 F - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown

11/13 S - AM 12 miles

Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles

11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30

11/15 T - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles

11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles

11/17 T - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles

11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile

11/19 S - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles

11/20 S - AM 4 miles

Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles

11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.

11/22 T - 5 miles

11/23 W - 5 miles

11/24 T - 4 miles

11/25 F - 5 miles

11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)

11/27S - 4 miles

Todd Williams training thread.

From todd himself. he does things a little against convential wisdom thats why i hoped he would post more of it on pushthepace.com.

What it takes to run 42:22 at the Gate River Run?By Todd Williams*

Wow! It’s been 12 years since I ran one of the best races of my career and set the American record of 42:22 right here in Jacksonville at the 1995 Gate River Run. I was also fortunate enough -- through lots of hard work -- to win four other Gate River Runs in the 90’s. I retired from competitive racing in 2003 and today the question I am asked most is: how did I run that fast and how did I train to average 4:30 per mile for 9.3 miles? My reply is always the same. I had plenty of talent but I also WORKED EXTREMELY HARD over a long period of time. In this article I’ll give an inside look at the training I did leading up to the 1995 Gate River Run. However, I DO NOT ADVISE THIS TRAINING SCHEDULE for anyone other than a world-class runner. What worked for me won’t necessarily work for you. Now that I’m coaching I know it’s extremely important to train each runner differently. Each runner has a certain mileage and intensity they can handle and must adjust accordingly. Following is an example of my training leading to my record setting performance.

Weekly mileage for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run:?110-102-91-86-93-105-105-95-103-106* race week

Long runs for the 10 weeks leading up to 1995 Gate River Run:?12-8-10-10-8-11-12-10-11-10

Specific workouts:?Each week I would do a track workout, hill workout and a faster road run, with some samples of those below. For each workout I ran a 3-4 mile warm-up at a sub 6:00 pace, followed by 6-150m strides and a 2 mile warm-down.

Key workouts:

1. 4xmile@4:15 with 3 minutes recovery jogs between each mile

2. Hills – 10x380 meter hill with jog back down for recovery between each

3. 8 x 1000m @2:45 with 200m jog recovery between each 1000m

4. 1600m – 1200m--800m-400m@:60-:61 pace with 400m jog recovery between each

5. 5 miles HARD road run (4:45 pace) then back to the track for 4 x 800m @2:02 – 2:04 with 400m jog recovery

6. 20 x 200m @ :30 with 200m jog recovery

7. 6 mile HARD road run then back to the track for a 4:08 mile

I ran twice a day every day, with my pace on each run never slower than 6 minutes per mile. At the completion of each afternoon run I would do 8 x 150m strides at mile race pace. The strides helped develop my speed and I left the track each day feeling fast. I was also in the weight room three times a week for circuit training consisting of body weight exercises (push-ups, dips, lunges, pull-ups etc). I took very little rest between each exercise. I wanted to break down my muscles and make them work when they were very fatigued. I liked to duplicate the feel I would have in the later stages of my races.

Even though I only stretched about 10 minutes before and after each run, I always recommend doing whatever you’ve been doing that keeps you healthy. Don’t change what works.

As you can see, I didn’t do anything magical. I just ran a consistent program year-in and year-out that got me to the point of handling a higher work load. I was also very fortunate to stay healthy for a majority of my running career.

My advice to all runners at any level is to stick with what works, stay consistent and if you are a beginner or a runner that wants advice, contact me at PUSHTHEPACE.com and I’ll help design a program that best fits your needs.

Best of luck to all of you.

*Todd Williams is a 2-time Olympian and is the only 5-time Gate River Run champion. He set the American 15K record of 42:22 at Gate River Run in 1995, a record which still stands today.

eojtlc: you did say that finding out that a world class 10k runner, especially a woman, doesn't do more than that should be a "yawner". The two express a similar sentiment

malmo: No it doesn't.

Oh come now, you slippery sophist, next you'll argue that "finding out that a man is named Bob should be a yawner" is not equivalent to "it's standard for men to be named Bob."

nsmb, old and slow wrote:

Oh come now, you slippery sophist, next you'll argue that "finding out that a man is named Bob should be a yawner" is not equivalent to "it's standard for men to be named Bob."

LOL. Funny thing is, that's exactly the warped logic that predominates this message board.

I used to think that the board was dominated by high school kids, then it suddenly dawned on me that the bell curve of intelligence has two wings. We see a lot of posts coming from the left slope of that curve here. That neither bad nor good, it just is. A certain percentage just isn't going to get it. Ever.

Now Malmo, you CLEARLY said it wasn't surprising for a 10k bronze medalist to have run no further than 12mi at one go.

Now, CLEARLY, this means that you believe ALL 10k runners at that level stop at 12miles in training. I think you are the one with the warped logic.

Furthermore, your times don't fit into the neat little calculator the lab coats have constructed. Therefore, your training was wrong.

Also, since it is written in stone and inarguable that singles are better than doubles, we can conclude that since Flanagan never ran more than 12mi before being coached by Jerry that also means she never ran more than 84 miles a week. It is of course outlandish and impossible to guess that perhaps she was running 4miles in the morning and 10 miles in the afternoons on some days.

I think you've pretty much exhausted your credibility, malmo. I mean, you're saying things that go against what I've heard repeated many times. If the wisdom is repeated often enough, that clearly makes it true. I think if you expect to be taken seriously, you should repeat your ideas more to give them credibility.

not so fast malmo wrote:

George ran 1:01:43 for the half, which predicts a 2:09:49 marathon, but his best was 2:12:23. Personally, I'm 6 minutes faster in the marathon than what is predicted,

HAHAHAHA. Congratulations for beating a lame hypothetical prediction. I'm sure someone who's actually held two American records could give a shit.

not so fast malmo wrote:

and YES, I do emphasize the long run.

What does this mean? When does a long run become emphasized? When it's a certain percentage of weekly mileage? When it covers a certain number of miles? Whether it's run weekly? Bi-weekly? Twice weekly? Whether it meets *your* criteria for emphasized?

What the hell are you talking about?

Interesting workout posts about Salazar and Williams, Malmo - thanks. I also heard that Lasse Viren rarely ran further than 8 miles at a time.

So what's the purpose of avoiding the runs longer than an hour? For me, I only run longer than an hour if:

1) I'm feeling too muscular and want some muscle mass to go away. Protein breakdown gets significant after an hour of running. Ahhh, smell that ammonia!

2) I'm training for a marathon or half marathon and am doing a long run. Of course, in that case, the purpose is to get to glycogen depletion, so I'm going to go at least 18, and maybe as long as 24 miles.

Shalane probably has never raced further than 10k, so runs longer than an hour were probably purposely avoided.

For many, twice a day running > one workout lasting longer than an hour.

She confirms her "no longer than 12 miles" before her Beijing bronze:

http://www.flotrack.org/videos/coverage/view_video/236094-2010-houston-half-marathon/263601-shalane-flanagan-before-her-debut-at-the-2010-houston-half-marathon

Rob De castella ran a 20 miler every weekend.

Greta Waitz didn't.

Both were world class.

The point is you can argue for or against and still be proven wrong.

From Salazar's book.

Hard Lessons Learned.

"In 1984 I qualified for the L.A. Olympics where I was favored to win.I had exhausted myself by training too hard and it was hot---never my strong suit.

I finished poorly in 15th place.

The next few years were even more disappointing.I was in a downward spiral of declining performance during which I exhausted myself even more by trying to push through with ever-harder training."

Maybe He should Have had a day off occasionally.

Why was He so strong at the end.

20 milers every week perhaps