Did Said Aoutia and Hicham El G dope too?

"I guess it's lose-lose for the athletes with people like you. Runs a lot of race, he must be on drugs. Runs very few races, must be on drugs. Consistant? must be the drugs. Not consistant...you get the picture?"

Not at all! Having been an avid follower of the sport for many years and having read numerous books and articles, I strongly believe that many middle and long distance guys in the late 90's were on EPO. The historical rate of progression in these years improved exponentially faster in practically every event from 1500m upwards. The fact that EPO was not detectable is the reason.

"And half of those things you mention at the end make absolutely no sense-being Morrocan I can under stand, but being paced by his teammates? Never missing championships? Never running the 800m? WTF ARE YOU ON?"

Yes, I do think the fact he didn't run 800m or suffer any major injury/illness in a 10 year career is very strange. No, it doesn't mean he was taking drugs, but the cumulative affect of several anomalies makes one wonder why. I can't think of any number one 1500m runner before him who didn't get beaten when coming back from injury, pull out of at least one Championship or major race through illness/injury or who didn't run the odd 800/1000m. None of these mean he was taking PEDs, but could be used to suggest his career was not a conventional one.

"Coe got his blood disorder (THAT is suspicious, if anything is)"

Why is this suspicious? Toxoplasmosis is something that anyone can pick up. It's no more strange than someone getting mono. There wasn't EPO in 1982/83 when he contacted it, and if he was blood doping (which is what I think you're insinuating) then he would only be having his OWN blood put back in. It's not as if he'd be sharing someone else's needle. It would have been suspicious had he come back a few weeks later and broke a world Record, but it decimated 2 whole seasons for him. This says more about the poor state of the British NHS and sports medicine at the time (the fact it took so long to diagnose) than anything about drug use.

deanouk wrote:

I was also reading somewhere this week that there is growing evidence for some scientists to suggest that certain drugs actually have a long term benefit even after their use has been stopped. Perhaps others read this or can give more detailed evidence behind the claims? Whose to say that many of the guys in the mid 90's began using EPO, used for a couple of seasons on & off, but were helped by this use for the rest of their careers, even after EPO testing came into being.

It would be interesting to have more of a discussion on this.

I think there are at least three or four different studies claiming that EPO use has anti-aging benefits, so surely that would suggest it has beneficial long term effects?

The fact that four years down the line from this thread, guys like Kipchoge and Bekele are still performing miracles, also suggests that they had long term benefit from full throttle use in the early 2000's.

El Guerrouj was 100% clean - you can NOT stay at the highest level and run sub 3:29 4543543 times if you were doping. Look at many dopers who got busted, banned for 2 years and started competing again - they are NOWHERE near their performance level.

Amine Laâlou was tested positive for furosemide (substance that hides illegal drugs) in 2012 after his Olympian room mate witnessed him doping in front of him and gave the WADA a clue. At that time, he was a 3:29 1500m guy.

After his 2-year penalty, he failed to reach the same level. His best was a 3:35, most being in the 3:37-3:40 range and many DNF. In April 2016 he tested AGAIN positive out-of-competition for EPO and got a 8-year ban.

So he went from 3:29 to 3:35-3:40 guy, which is a BIG difference. He realized he will not pay the bills as 3:35-3:40 guy and tried doping again, this time further away from key competitions (already in April) but luckily was caught again before he would miraculously become the former 3:29 guy again.

El Guerrouj was ALWAYS a 3:27-3:30 guy, with the ability to run 3:26 in perfectly paced, tapered races. No sudden perforrmance increase, no irregular performances as dopers often have and he even showed he is human when he lost to a speedier guy (Ngeny) on the home straight in the Olympic final, his most important race.

Except that at least two of gerrouj's training partners were pinched for ped use, and coach Kada (his coach) blamed for the young Driouch testing positive. Gerrouj was nothing more than a science project, dominating other drug users at the height of the epo era.

Aouita left his position with Australian Athletics after his insistence that it would be impossible to attain international heights without the use of pharmaceutical means.

I disagree. IMO, El G is highly suspicious. You have to understand the doping culture at Morocco - they are a PED-powered nation: numerous doping positives, 10 ABP infraction bans (2nd only to Russia), doping coaches, etc. You should embark on some research with Moroccan doping.

El G ran his 1500, mile & 2000m WRs before the EPO test was implemented (2001). And not long after that Boulami became the first Moroccan to test positive for EPO when he set the WR in the steeplechase in 2002! Lol.

And take a look at the top 6 fastest Moroccan 1500 all-time guys (though Ramzi "officially" ran for Bahrain, he trained under Boulami in Morocco for several months out of the year and probably worked with Moroccan doping coaches/doctors for his programs.

1. El G 3:26.00

2. Iguider 3:28.79

3. Ramzi 3:29.14 EPO (CERA) IC positive 2008

4. Aouita 3:29.46

5. Laâlou 3:29.53 Furosemide IC positive 2012 & EPO OOC positive 2012

6. Kaouch 3:31.10 EPO IC positive 2007

That's 50% out of their top 6 who got caught doping! Even their fastest all-time female 1500 runner, Mariem Alaoui Selsouli (3:56.15) was busted twice for doping; EPO IC at the 09 WC & Furosemide at the London Olympics! Lol.

You might also want to read this article:

Though the WR time was flushed due to the IC doping positive, the time still stands as the fastest to date:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

El Guerrouj was ALWAYS a 3:27-3:30 guy, with the ability to run 3:26 in perfectly paced, tapered races. No sudden perforrmance increase, no irregular performances as dopers often have and he even showed he is human when he lost to a speedier guy (Ngeny) on the home straight in the Olympic final, his most important race.

Why would El G have had a sudden improvement in performance when he was part of a GDR style program since his teens, and until his retirement in 2005*, athletes were able to full throttle with EPO?

Did Marita Koch have a sudden improvement in performances that would raise a red flag for you?

*the very year he chose to retire as still the dominant force at 1500m, and just one season after beating Bekele and Kipchoge over 5000m

dsadsadsd wrote:

do you think its possible?

They were from Morocco, ran in the 90s and early 2000s when. I think it's almost impossible they didn't dope.

Ironically, Kaouch was the guy that set the fast pace/rabbit for el g in 99 and 01 world champs.

*busted

There's a 100% chance El G's a doper. Like, how tf could anyone not be convinced of that?

Moroccan running has been dirty for decades.

The DDR, USSR and China were all cleaner than Morocco has ever been.

Salah Hissou; from MAR: 26:38.08 former wr from 1996; was popped for EPO/PED use ..unsure of what year he tested positive.

Asking if Aouita or El G doped is like asking if the fat kid likes donuts. Those guys were glowing like halogen lamps baby!

This forum allows anonymous people to comment without registering. This is supposedly to encourage insiders to speak out.

Is there anyone here who personally knows for sure that Guerrouj or Farah are cheaters? Anyone have genuine insider info?

Jzs wrote:

Salah Hissou; from MAR: 26:38.08 former wr from 1996; was popped for EPO/PED use ..unsure of what year he tested positive.

I'm not finding anything on him but most of his fast stuff was pre-EPO testing era. Here's an interesting thread about him:

E-V-E-R-Y TRACK ATHLETE that has been at the top levels in world class Track and Field over the last 30 years has been on a specific, regimented doping program which is part and parcel of their overall training program.

It is E-X-A-C-T-L-Y the situation which is know KNOWN to be the case in world class cycling for decades.

You are not winning races at that level if you are not doping. You are not fast enough to be considered for a professional "program" if you are not doping. You can't train at the required level to compete in world class events if you are not doping.

Anybody who believes there are "clean" athletes competing on even terms with others who are doping are naive beyond redemption or have a vested interest in sweeping the obvious under the carpet.

Show me the glow wrote:

Asking if Aouita or El G doped is like asking if the fat kid likes donuts. Those guys were glowing like halogen lamps baby!

POTD.