What Feat Was More Impressive: Ryan's 3:33 running 2:46 or Keino 1500 at Mexico City?

]J.R. wrote:

That is exactly the case. Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time. The slow start races were ideal for him, and a set up for his kick.

He was not capable of running any faster than he did.

Had the '68 Olympics been at sea level, and with the same tactics that were used, Kip Keino would have won by a similar margin as he did at Mexico City, except the time would have been somewhat faster.

Intergalactic wrote:

Assuming you are who I think you are, then considering the fact that many people here know who are you, why do you refer to him as "Ryun"? I guess I can see where you're coming from, but it strikes me as odd.

If you're trying to imply that that was Jim Ryun posting above, I think you're mistaken.

Fascinating & informative post. Thanks!

Coe's lap times in Stuttgart (1:44.50) aren't quite right. They were 52.9 & 51.6 (negative split), with the last 200m in 24.7 and last 100m in 12.5.

His 200 splits were 25.5, 27.4, 26.9 & 24.7. The fact that he ran all the penultimate lane in lane 2, meaning he ran 3.52m further than necessary, as well as being wide going into and coming out of the last bend, means his last 400m was probably worth more like 50.9/51.0, last 200m 24.5/24.6. His final time would also have been worth under 1:44.0 had he not run wide.

I remember seeing a short summary of Aouita running 36.4 in Grosseto (1984) in AW, and thought it highly unlikely at the time. Just like it was quoted the following year in the same publication that he ran the last 100m in the Nice WR race in 11.9!! I knew straight away that was impossible, and some clown had actually timed him from the 90m mark. Even the IAAF's book (Progression of IAAF World Records, 2007) is littered with inaccuracies. It would be interesting to know what the apparent breakdown of splits were for Aouita's run (e.g last 400m, 800m etc) or if it is available to watch on any site!?

I also have to say I am wary of the accuracy of Ryun's apparent 36.4 finish in Dusseldorf '67. The account I have of the race (in T&FN's book, "The Milers") says that "One expert observer (?) timed Ryun's 100m along the backstretch in a nearly incredible 11.6 seconds"

Who was this observer and where was he sitting? Was it hand-timed?

It goes on,..."His last 200m averaged 12.4 seconds for each 100, a total of 24.8. (Easily believable). THUS his last 300m took only 36.4,..."

Sounds to me that someone on the infield hand timed him roughly over what he thought was a 100m section, and they then just added that to the 24.8 200m split. What makes me inclined to this even more is when it states in the next sentence:

"His lat 400 was also fastest on record - 50.6 (One report gave his last 400 as 49.7)" !!

Well straight away there is a discrepancy of almost a second over 400m!?

Thurston Howell IV wrote:

Juha Vaatainen EC 71 400 in 52.8 for 27:51? (not sure about the total)

Vaatainen ran 53.8 in the last lap of the 10,000 in 1971 in the EC in Helsinki. It was in the last lap of the 5,000 that he ran 52.8.

I have heard various reports of Walkers last 300 at Montreal being 37.X secs

His last 300m was 37.9, last 400m 52.5, last 800m 1:50.7.

Last 200m was 25.2.

jsquire wrote:

Ekpaj wrote:

Sounds like something Squires would write.

Why are you afraid to use your real name instead of hiding? I'm not.

As for the original question, I think I'd go with Ryun's 3:33.1. Trying to guess how many seconds various altitudes slow different runners isn't quite like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but probably just as pointless. The altitude did affect Keino, though certainly less than the lowlanders, but the Mexico City track was the fastest yet constructed as of 1968 and he had a rabbit. I figure all of those things more or less evened each other out.

Keino was a better miler than Ryun for a grand total of one day in the 1966-1968 time period, but it was the right day to pick.

Very well stated. People forget that Ryun absolutely trounced Keino twice in '67. In the WR 1500, Keino tried to blitz the middle of the race, with the result that he got crushed. In the London mile, he tried to Let Ryun do the work and sprint by at the end, with the result that he got crushed. Keino was very clearly superior to Ryun at longer distances (except that Ryun beat him in their only meeting at 2 miles!), but at the 1500/mile distance, Keino was better only once--but it's a "once" that everyone remembers.

Living in the Past wrote:

J.R. wrote:

Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time.

Can you give some examples?

Very good question by Living in the Past! The original assertion is just foolish--I can't think of a single example of this in Ryun's prime years.

old tymer wrote:

Very good question by Living in the Past! The original assertion is just foolish--I can't think of a single example of this in Ryun's prime years.

For one thing, no one would have been able to keep up with Ryun for very long if he had run at a fast, even pace in 1966-1967. And besides, there was no reason for Ryun to run at an even pace, since he knew that he had the best kick.

let me add new flavor to story

kip worked for police force & my pa was his immediate boss

kip was given little time off prior to '68 - he was holding down a job & had to work most of the day - chasing cattle-rustlers

he was given a coupla off/day to train during 9 - 5, but other training was on his own time

ryun, on other hand was more or less full-time athlete ( albeit at college )

kip, however, did get a big advantage to ryun prior to '68 years to help him train :

my pa was told by hq to provide kip with a coupla chickens/week as govt contribution

all this got kip good enough to break the 3k/5k WRs - former lasting 7y

in '68, govt told pa to let kip off more police work & train nearer full-time ( but not completely before training camp ) & throw in an extra chicken/week

after '68, he was back to full-time police work until '72

old tymer wrote:

People forget that Ryun absolutely trounced Keino twice in '67.

This shows the genious of Kip Keino. He set Ryun up big time, by setting him up twice and playing his game, deluding Ryun into thinking he would run every race the same way.

Big mistake!

Ryun thought he would win the Olympics with a 3:49 1500. What a joke. I was so happy to see Kip Keino running away from him. Sure, Ryun was a good runner, with a kick. He reminded me of Roger Bannister. But Keino could run twice as far as the pace that Ryun could run for a 5k. People who think Ryun never tried to run an even pace don't have any clue of his history. Do your own research and don't be so lazy.

Anyway Kip Keino set Ryun up big time, and then WHAMMO, socked it to him when it counted. Good for you Kip Keino, because YOU did what it took, no whining or complaining, and you WON the race fair and square. NO WHINING OR COMPLAINING. This is what I admire about you, and that you ran the race out from the start. This was one of the best 1500 races of all time. Sure, Ryun might have won the race if it had been a slow pace as usual, but it wasn't, and he didn't. If pigs could fly, but they don't.

J.R. wrote:This shows the genious of Kip Keino. He set Ryun up big time, by setting him up twice and playing his game, deluding Ryun into thinking he would run every race the same way.

In hindsight, one might think that but I seriously doubt that Keino was thinking that far ahead. Ryun simply beat him 3 for 3 in '66-'67. Keino was a great athlete, and plenty smart, but he was also very, very lucky that the '68 Olympics were at altitide. At any other site, the end result might well have been different.

J.R. wrote:

People who think Ryun never tried to run an even pace don't have any clue of his history. Do your own research and don't be so lazy.

Anyway Kip Keino set Ryun up big time, and then WHAMMO, socked it to him when it counted.

You're trying to slip out of your ridiculous assertion by saying that Ryun sometimes tried to run an even pace. Earlier, you said that whenever he tried to run an even pace, he crashed and burned. It's pretty obvious that you have no evidence to back up your earlier ludicrous statement.

Equally ludicrous is your idea that Keino deliberately allowed Ryun to win in 1967 so that he could surprise him with new tactics in 1968. Keino simply made sure that he took full advantage of the altitude by running fast early on, thinking that Ryun would suffer ever more or be so far behind that he couldn't possibly make up the gap in the last lap. The only element of surprise was that Keino ran 3:34.

(BTW, what were Ryun's splits in the 1500 in Mexico City?)

Agree completely.

this post, like most of yours, has douchebag written all over it.

[quote]Living in the Past wrote:

You're trying to slip out of your ridiculous assertion by saying that Ryun sometimes tried to run an even pace.[quote]

I made no ridiculous assertion. You must have been reading your own messages.

Kip Keino often lead with fast paces in his races, including the 1500 and the mile. He could kick the whole race, but not as well for one lap and less so for the last 100-200 meters. Anyone who is paying attention knows this about Keino and he certainly was aware of it too. Why would he hold back every time against Ryun, especially in a short race of only 1500 meters or one mile? There was only ONE reason.

He was setting him up and it worked.

The danger was that if he ran a fast pace and beat Ryun in the years before the Olympics, it would have disclosed his strength and his strategy. This was very smart of Keino. So smart that even now some people haven't figured it out.

J.R. wrote:

Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time.

Still no evidence, huh?

London mile 1967

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ICn7-Uaqk

Keino jogged off and stayed behind Ryun the whole distance.

Smart runner.

Olympic Champion, 2 golds, 2 silver

IF you don't think Keino gave his all in that race you are even stupider then I thought you were. I have always thought you were an obvious troller, giving inflammatory opinions on everything from the Chinese female distance runners doping (or lack of according to you) to now this. Now I realize you are just a stupid old man. I pity you.

jr ur an idiet and ur stupider